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Old 05-23-04, 11:45 AM   #25
munsen
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Today is Sunday. You can rest assured it wont be today (well, most likely hehe). In all seriousness, try to be patient. Drivers dont appear over night or in a week or 2 in some cases. Trust me, Im very eagerly checking these forums daily in hopes of the announcement thread. It's only a matter of time, and posting out of impatience isnt going to help. Cheer up
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Old 05-23-04, 12:06 PM   #26
cabrilo
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by munsen
Today is Sunday. You can rest assured it wont be today (well, most likely hehe). In all seriousness, try to be patient. Drivers dont appear over night or in a week or 2 in some cases. Trust me, Im very eagerly checking these forums daily in hopes of the announcement thread. It's only a matter of time, and posting out of impatience isnt going to help. Cheer up
It's not about impatience (well, it is, but that's just the part of it ). I would like to be able to plan ahead, i.e. if I should recompile the kernel, or buy ATI or whatever...
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Old 05-23-04, 12:42 PM   #27
munsen
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

I definately wouldnt go with ATI over a late driver fix. Not flaming or criticizing you in any way, but if you dont mind me asking, what makes FC2 so important that you cant wait for hw accelleration. I have it installed on my other box myself but that box isnt critical. Planning ahead to me is realizing that Fedora introduced something to the distro that broke some things. In that knowledge I planned on waiting however long it takes for Nvidia to have a driver ready and compatable. Thats just me and your situation is likely to be different than mine, but I can play my games and do everything else that requires 3d accel on FC1 till that happens. My FC1 install is rock solid. Anyway, Im really sorry if I seem to be overly critical of your needs. That isnt my intention. I just cant help but think we all knew this was inevitable and in return we all knew we would be waiting indefinately. I would say if you *really* need it, go ahead and recompile the kernel. This isn't really worth spending the money on hw that may be a bigger pain in the *ss to get working correctly imho. Just my 2c not meant to offend
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Old 05-23-04, 01:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by munsen
I definately wouldnt go with ATI over a late driver fix. Not flaming or criticizing you in any way, but if you dont mind me asking, what makes FC2 so important that you cant wait for hw accelleration. I have it installed on my other box myself but that box isnt critical. Planning ahead to me is realizing that Fedora introduced something to the distro that broke some things. In that knowledge I planned on waiting however long it takes for Nvidia to have a driver ready and compatable. Thats just me and your situation is likely to be different than mine, but I can play my games and do everything else that requires 3d accel on FC1 till that happens. My FC1 install is rock solid. Anyway, Im really sorry if I seem to be overly critical of your needs. That isnt my intention. I just cant help but think we all knew this was inevitable and in return we all knew we would be waiting indefinately. I would say if you *really* need it, go ahead and recompile the kernel. This isn't really worth spending the money on hw that may be a bigger pain in the *ss to get working correctly imho. Just my 2c not meant to offend
You missunderstood me. As I said, it's not impatience. I can live without their drivers long enough that I made a switch to FC2. I made a switch because I wanted new kernel, gnome 2.6, etc. all in a nice package Also, I constantly had problems with FC1, that now dissappeared (nothing serious, but still.. I didn't like it that much), and now we have a nice ARTS with kernel 2.6 combination, which is important.

My point is that if it is oging to take nvidia several months to come up with new drivers every time that we change kernel (and I am not saying that this will happen, I am just speculating), I will rather have hardware that I can use with software I like. Also, if it is going to take nvidia a month or two, I will compile the kernel so I can play games while waiting for nvidia's fix.

I anticipated new drivers arriving at about the same time as the problem occured, but that didn't happen. I don't mind at all waiting for a couple of weeks or couple of months if this doesn't happen every time kernel gets a new feature, I would just like to know how long it's going to take. Of course, changing my graphic card is the last resort, and definetely something I will do only if we don't get new drivers for a seriously long period of time (which is not likely, given nvidia's previous record).

I don't want to sound bitching, I like the drivers that we are getting and it's great that nvidia has Linux users acknowledged as their customers (thats why I bought nvidia card in the first place). I'd just like to know approximate (within a week, or a month) time of the next drivers release, so I can plan. That's all.

Cheers
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Old 05-23-04, 02:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mow
Sorry but that is a load of crap .... ATI's linux drivers are far inferior to NVIDIA's.
Ahh, but therein lies the real solution: I don't need to use their ****ed-up binary-only drivers. The DRI Project supports most Radeons natively with open-source drivers. Drivers that real Linux developers were able to create because ATI wasn't an asshole about releasing their chip specs. I get fast, stable, and nicely working 2D and 3D acceleration, under native 64-bit, through these drivers. Which is far, far more than can be said about any driver nvidia has ever released.
Quote:
I'm not trying to start ANOTHER war (SuLinux you need more fider in your diet) and used to be one of ATI's biggest supporters until I came to the Linux world and saw the total lack of Linux support (remember using firegl drivers not long ago for RADEON cards?) not too mention that the the drivers that are out there now don't support 64-bit (NVIDIA does)
Again, check out the DRI project. I thought the lack of 64-bit binary-only drivers on ATI's site meant that there were no drivers available for 64-bit. Which is why I dicked around with a worthless GeforceFX5200 for six months instead of getting a Radeon in the first place. Now that I have, I am getting full 2D and 3D hardware acceleration. I am running under native 64-bit. Ergo, there is 64-bit for Radeons.
Quote:
and the 32-bit drivers suck.
And the nvidia ones don't? All binary-only drivers released by a manufacturer suck, nearly by definition; if they blow up, there's nearly nobody to fix them. I've had the exact same problem with nvidia drivers for a year and a half, across two platforms and three cards and several driver revisions. But no more. Goodbye daily system hangs, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Quote:
Now when ATI does release 64-bit drivers and IF they work I will be the first one to run out and buy a x800 XT and slap it in my Linux box because (sorry NVIDIA .... I do like your cards) right now ATI is king of the heap.
In this you may be correct... nvidia's broken crippled binary-only drivers get released first, before open-source drivers get made for ATI cards. Had I bought an ultranew bleeding-edge ATI card, DRI might not have supported it yet; I, however, am not a hardcore gamer, so I got a Radeon 7500. I'm more concerned with reliability and usability than getting 4189674964196871FPS.

Last edited by Corona688; 05-23-04 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 05-23-04, 04:20 PM   #30
LordMorgul
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corona688
Ahh, but therein lies the real solution: I don't need to use their ****ed-up binary-only drivers. The DRI Project supports most Radeons natively with open-source drivers. Drivers that real Linux developers were able to create because ATI wasn't an asshole about releasing their chip specs. I get fast, stable, and nicely working 2D and 3D acceleration, under native 64-bit, through these drivers.
What you get, according to every user I personally know, is a driver set that works through DRI, better than the nv driver... but is still completely insufficient for modeling or gaming. In essence, DRI provides 2D and the ability to 'draw' 3D to your screen.. not to render it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corona688
Had I bought an ultranew bleeding-edge ATI card, DRI might not have supported it yet; I, however, am not a hardcore gamer, so I got a Radeon 7500. I'm more concerned with reliability and usability than getting 4189674964196871FPS.
And therein lies the real reason you can support your arguments, you are not arguing on the same issue as most of these posters. There are currently no hardware options that provide adequate performance for 3D gaming or complex modeling with open source drivers. Your argument is really then, entirely different from the majority of people who discuss the difference between ATI and nVIDIA driver performance / stability.

Open Source drivers are nice.. and not much more. The reality of the hardware support situation for Linux is that binary, closed source drivers are the only adequate way to achieve the performance capabilities of the gpus. Running the card with a slow and stable driver that happens to draw 3D to screen is not the desired result for many people -- for you that may be fine, but to argue that it is good enough for everyone is simply ludicrous.
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Old 05-23-04, 08:33 PM   #31
Corona688
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordMorgul
What you get, according to every user I personally know, is a driver set that works through DRI, better than the nv driver... but is still completely insufficient for modeling or gaming. In essence, DRI provides 2D and the ability to 'draw' 3D to your screen.. not to render it.
Hardware-accelerated 3D by any other name is still hardware-accelerated 3D. Every OpenGL program on my computer gets better performance with this low-end ATI card than it did with a new GeforceFX5200, and I can guarantee you it is NOT doing software rendering.
Quote:
And therein lies the real reason you can support your arguments, you are not arguing on the same issue as most of these posters. There are currently no hardware options that provide adequate performance for 3D gaming or complex modeling with open source drivers. Your argument is really then, entirely different from the majority of people who discuss the difference between ATI and nVIDIA driver performance / stability.
Considering that nvidia's LOW-END cards aren't even properly supported under my platform, I can't run high-end nvidia either. So it's a case of ATI working and nvidia, well, not working.
Quote:
Open Source drivers are nice.. and not much more. The reality of the hardware support situation for Linux is that binary, closed source drivers are the only adequate way to achieve the performance capabilities of the gpus. Running the card with a slow and stable driver that happens to draw 3D to screen is not the desired result for many people -- for you that may be fine, but to argue that it is good enough for everyone is simply ludicrous.
This reeks of a very common misconception often seen among software users; that there is some real difference between "fake software" that is written by humans for other humans, and "real software" that people get in binary-only form from corporations. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. 100% flat-out wrong. There is absolutely nothing to prevent open-source from optimizing their code any more than there's anything preventing closed-source programmers from optimizing their code.

The fact of the matter is, nvidia's closed-source drivers will not work on my platform. ATI's open-source drivers do work and get great performance on my platform.
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Old 05-23-04, 10:51 PM   #32
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Corona, I dunno what kind of pipe you are smoking there, and especially how strong of a narcotic you have in it, but whatever is strong enough to make a person believe that ATI's drivers in Linux make a low end ati card better than anything nVidia's released in the last....4 years, must be strong enough to convince a crowd of neo-nazi's to start drinking with rednecks.

Let me introduce the first most often recognized bug in ATI's drivers:
Currently known issues

===============

IMPORTANT
Problem : Bad performance
Applications Affected : All 3D apps
Cards Affected : All
Versions : All Kernels, All XFree, All driver - 3.7.0 in particular
Distributions : All
Impact : High, All Users
Workaround :

none

===============

Ok, now, this didn't come from some nVidia fan site or some nvidia oriented corporate mind-controlling alien sitting on the moon. It came from the exact opposite. It came from a community of diehard ATI fans so bent on spreading fanATIcism that it would not surprise me to see them offer first borns in exchange for catalyst drivers. Something to think about, anyhow read this thread http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33733550

Oh, BUT, if someone were so delved into a high off some narcotic invented in Brazil 300 years ago that was kept secret by the government because it was so strong it caused a crowd of neo-nazi's to start drinking with rednecks, might I point you to this thread so you can kind of get an idea why ATI's drivers make a 9800 pro perform like a geforce3 in Linux. That is completely serious too, if you have evidence to dispute I suggest you get some benchmarks up like NOW. Then, fill out a job application with ATI for their Linux department, and go make tons of money getting their linux stuff up to par.

Check this out http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33756725

Oh and check this out http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...post1332710061

Oh, and lemme just copy and paste a few undisputed sentences:

What's the saying, we are the only ones that matter? To best sum it up, ATI support vs nVidia support, is reversed in Linux support. nVidia has substantial support for Linux where ATI has poor support. Funny enough, look at Terry's most recent interview, I love his response to the question about XP 64 drivers, something to the effect of "We don't want users to have a poor experience on our products". Well, in that logic, he needs to pull all support for Linux, remove all existing linux drivers from ATI or affiliated servers, and just use that excuse.

Honestly, in Linux, the GeForce3 delivers performance that gives the R300 a run for it's money, and that's for sure. The R350 barely manages to eke ahead of the GeForce3. People that have switched to the 5900XT have been LOVING it. This is leaving behind their 9800's.

Oh, and BTW, ATI's drivers are this thing called "closed source". In which if you have access to the source code, someone at ATI is going to have you giving a kidney to pay for the lawsuit.

[edit]
Sorry, looking back you were talking dri drivers, which don't have stable xv support. Under R3x0 they also exhibit common corruption, and there really is no gl support. If you have benchmarks that run ut2k3, Savage, RtCW/ET, Tribes2, or any meaningful 3D app that outperforms ATI's binary drivers, consider yourself a hero.

But don't hold your breath, the alu operations, the ddi, some of the *excruciatingly* complex shader algorithms and the like, CANNOT be reverse engineered to make a driver when ATI won't release the source. Unless ATI yielded some very technical aspects of their GPU, you will never be able to run OGLSL code on an opensource ati driver.

Last edited by oldsk00l; 05-23-04 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 05-24-04, 01:51 AM   #33
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Talking Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabrilo
Who is paying you so much to advocate nvidia? Seriously, we are all paying customers of nvidia, and is it so unreasonable to expect drivers for our favorite distribution? Why must you be so upset with us?

I am very happy with their drivers so far (of course, I would like to see open source, but that's just me), and I am a bit disappointed because nvidia didn't release a fix for this issue, even though it was very predictable (we all knew exactly when Fedora Core 2 is coming out, and we all knew about the kernel issue). Fedora is de facto one of the most important distributions out there, because it sets standards, other distros are based on it, etc. That fact should be respected.

Sorry about the rant, but this is just my 2 cents and a plea to nvidia to get us some new drivers. I don't want to get a flame started
Why don't you use a real distribution instead. Or *gasp* compile your own kernel.


Stick to Windows, n00b.
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Old 05-24-04, 02:05 AM   #34
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrockway
Why don't you use a real distribution instead. Or *gasp* compile your own kernel.


Stick to Windows, n00b.
WTF??? Real distribution? Fedora isn't one, it's a fake, right?

I haven't used Windows at home ever since I got my hand on the first copy of Linux that I could buy in my town, which was Red Hat, somewhere around 5. Then I experimented with SuSE for a while, but I didn't like it too much. I got back to Red Hat with v. 9. Now I am with Fedora. Something else is around here.
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Old 05-24-04, 02:15 AM   #35
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Fedora is broken. There are lots of things wrong with it, but it seems to have a cult-like following. And lots of very annoying people complaining about how broken it is (but how they can't leave it... sounds like a bad romance movie).

Try debian testing (or unstable) for a week and I don't think you'll consider Fedora to be worth your time.

I don't mean to incite a flamewar, it's just that I've run across too many pro-Fedora comments today (mostly on slashdot, but at least my comments got modded up )

Yeah these smilies are fun, also...
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Old 05-24-04, 09:57 AM   #36
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

It is not just 3d accel, there is another thing that only the nvidia binary driver will do, that is a dual head setup off of one card, the open source nv driver using xinerama just wont do it in my experience. The binary only driver uses twinview which works great. I hate to have to pop my old pci card in to get both my monitors. Anybody gotten a single card dual head setup working using the nv driver? Back to FC1 until nvidia releases it's new drivers, I am sure they are testing them right now. It is about time anyways, there has been windows releases since we got new drivers in Jan!
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