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Old 05-25-04, 05:39 PM   #49
LordMorgul
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevpatts
Could I squeeze in one question and let you guys get back to it?

Okay: I'm running Fedora Core 2 (2.6.5-1.358), the x86_64 version. Can I install the 32-bit version 5336 driver into the kernel or will all hell break loose?
Yes as answered already (just confirming).. all hell will break loose.
I am not actually sure the 64bit driver is broken using 4K stacks but I would assume so (I haven't seen people report it working anyway). The best option for you will be to compile a fresh mainline kernel (www.kernel.org) with the fedora config.. just remove the two options that cause this issue, and then use the 64bit driver.
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Old 05-25-04, 06:12 PM   #50
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordMorgul
I am not actually sure the 64bit driver is broken using 4K stacks but I would assume so (I haven't seen people report it working anyway).
Well.. having just looked, it appears that neither 4K stacks nor Register Parameters are an issue with x86_64 (AMD64). Here is the first report I remember seeing of them working:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29187

kevpatts
Perhaps you stopped when the driver installer did not find a precompiled interface for your kernel.. instead of allowing it to attempt to compile one?
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Old 05-25-04, 07:13 PM   #51
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevpatts
Could I squeeze in one question and let you guys get back to it?

Okay: I'm running Fedora Core 2 (2.6.5-1.358), the x86_64 version. Can I install the 32-bit version 5336 driver into the kernel or will all hell break loose? I can't install the most recent version of the x86_64 drivers (version 5332) cause they don't support my kernel version.

Any help?
Get the drivers that are patched for kernel 2.6 from http://www.minion.de/
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Old 05-25-04, 10:35 PM   #52
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

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Originally Posted by Corona688
Nothing so earth-shattering, no, simply the realization that the DRI Radeon drivers work perfectly well under my SMP AMD64 system, and nvidia's drivers, well, barely work at all.

Granted, the GeforceFX5200's benchmarks were better, but I can't run my system on benchmarks. Not when it's freezing daily, consuming 100% CPU on both CPUs, jittering like a squirrel on amphetamines, redrawing windows slower than uphill molasses in Russian winter, and lagging so badly I can't close a window.
Then there's something wrong with your configuration.
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Old 05-26-04, 02:20 AM   #53
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuLinUX
It amazes me how many people know the problem and yet still containue to install what dont work, why dont you get a version of Fedora that works with the current driver instead of ranting on. You Federa people expect nvidia to support a bleeding edge and TEST distro, it's no wounder nvidia are taking there time.

Oh and 2.6.5 works fine with the driver.
This isn't about Fedora and Fedora users, at least for me (and I use Fedora). I don't expect NVIDIA to support distributions on a case by case basis and regardless of how it may look they don't. For example, while you could download precompiled drivers for the original release of FC1, no updates were supplied for subsequent kernels and I'm confident that FC1 wasn't the only example of this.

In truth, what I want to see NVIDIA do is release the drivers for their cards to an approriate licenses so that they an be included in the kernel, saving me the time, effect and hassle of having to reinstall the driver each time I change kernels.

Short of this, I would like to NVIDIA support kernels in such a way that I can be confident that I can compile a driver for any given kernel. This way I don't need support of each kernel supplied with whatever distro I use. This had worked well for me in the past with each upgrade of the kernel that was released for FC1 and I'm sure many others have used the -add-this-kernel option too.

At this point in time I don't even care if FC2 is supported (in terms of a precompiled kernel option), but I do expect that they would support major changes to the kernel (like the 4kstack) in a timely manner. While FC2 has back-ported this feature (to 2.6.5), it is to become the norm for all x86 kernels as of 2.6.6 and as such I would have thought it appropriated for NVIDIA to have a working version of their driver for this feature.

Expecting inidividuallly compiled binaries for every distribution is a lot to ask, supporting the current feature set for kernels is less difficult, and this 4kstack problem has been looming for some time. If NVIDIA is unwilling to add their driver to the kernel source (which would be the best solution) then at least they could stay current with kernel development, however, don't confuse this lack of support for the kernel with comments of people wanting their distro, and their hard earned NVIDIA card, to work. You don't need specific distro support to use the driver, but you do need it to support the kernel.
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Old 05-26-04, 05:53 AM   #54
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

since when did this forum become a nvidia vs ATI/Fedora vs everything else-forum?
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Old 05-26-04, 02:44 PM   #55
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordMorgul
This appears logical simply because it is too shallow a statement to be meaningful. Hardware accelerated is a broad term that describes simply the video card's gpu processing some part.. or all of, the necessary rendering math. Being hardware accelerated does not indicate the hardware is doing all it could -- in other words reaching its optimum potential. My use of the word game 'draw' vs 'render' was for emphasis on the fact that optimum speed is not being obtained... if you feel otherwise some benchmark results are welcome.
It's not a differentiation between "optimum" and "not optimum" in my case. nvidia's closed-source 64-bit drivers don't... friggin... work. The open-source ATI drivers do... friggin... work. I can't run my system on benchmarks, for benchmarks to mean anything my system must be stable.
Quote:
please try to stop reading your agenda into my statements.
A'ight, fair enough.
Quote:
The programmers working for the corporations who developed the gpu have information availability that open source developers do not have, namely: gpu architecture and internal programmer's model, assigned and unlisted register information, and other hardware nitty-gritty details.
On the other hand, open-source developers have a resource that closed-source developers do not: A worldwide development community. We could have hardware-accelerated drivers built into DRM like they should be instead of being hacked around it, and users like me that've wasted months of time bitching on these boards about bugs in the nvidia drivers that never get fixed could have spent that time fixing the drivers.
Quote:
I did not address this issue whatsoever, and won't. There are many hardware configurations that will not work for specific hardware configurations -- for both driver sets (open and closed source) -- individual cases are more or less irrelevant to your initial claims.
The thing is, it's not just me. There are lots of people with the exact same problem as me, and we have spent the last 6 months on this forum trying to get a response from nvidia; we got one response: "stop that". We still don't even know if nvidia is AWARE of the problem with their driver, much less if they intend to fix it.
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Old 05-26-04, 05:55 PM   #56
LordMorgul
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corona688
On the other hand, open-source developers have a resource that closed-source developers do not: A worldwide development community. We could have hardware-accelerated drivers built into DRM like they should be instead of being hacked around it..
I am fully agreed that it is possible.. and would love to see it happen -- but it has taken years to get to the point the OS drivers currently are (well.. nv has been roughly the same for a long time since the driver is so obfuscated) -- it would definitely be faster if the companies were more generous with the necessary hardware data. Linux has matured significantly in the last few years and the level of support available to developers and from developers must continue to mature with the technology... within private companies as well as in the general community. On the goal we are agreed but I still feel on the current state of affairs you are a bit optimistic.
nVIDIA's driver does work for the majority of people.. in an almost ''drop in" simplicity (of course it could be better).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corona688
There are lots of people with the exact same problem as me, and we have spent the last 6 months on this forum trying to get a response from nvidia; we got one response: "stop that". We still don't even know if nvidia is AWARE of the problem with their driver, much less if they intend to fix it.
A more 'open honesty' from both ATI and nVIDIA about what problems are known and being worked on would benefit the community (and ultimately the company)... publicizing this information would not be harmful to the market share in the Linux sector. Instead it promotes realistic expectations and positive support for the efforts of the company rather than the continual 'bitching' about the lack of this information. Linux users and developers become very accustomed to being able to track the current state of affairs for projects and it is frustrating to wonder when a driver release will occur and what it might or might not be fixing.

I am sure these two companies have accrued some research on market shares.. specifically the portion of the market that considers their use of Linux to hinge on availability of these drivers. I do not have access to that info.. but I doubt that group is significant outside of commerical modeling / rendering studios -- pure speculation.

Anyone care to share their opinion on how an ATI or nVIDIA bugzilla would effect this process? Perhaps that would require more support staff than the private tech support through email, but it would also reduce duplication of effort.
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Last edited by LordMorgul; 05-26-04 at 05:59 PM. Reason: clean formatting
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Old 05-26-04, 09:43 PM   #57
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corona688
It's not a differentiation between "optimum" and "not optimum" in my case. nvidia's closed-source 64-bit drivers don't... friggin... work. The open-source ATI drivers do... friggin... work. I can't run my system on benchmarks, for benchmarks to mean anything my system must be stable. A'ight, fair enough. On the other hand, open-source developers have a resource that closed-source developers do not: A worldwide development community. We could have hardware-accelerated drivers built into DRM like they should be instead of being hacked around it, and users like me that've wasted months of time bitching on these boards about bugs in the nvidia drivers that never get fixed could have spent that time fixing the drivers. The thing is, it's not just me. There are lots of people with the exact same problem as me, and we have spent the last 6 months on this forum trying to get a response from nvidia; we got one response: "stop that". We still don't even know if nvidia is AWARE of the problem with their driver, much less if they intend to fix it.

I really think you are failing to see the core issue. DRI drivers will not have any kind of shader functionality, pbuffer, vbuffer, t-junction, or tree support. They will not have nearly as many OGL extensions supported, not to mention texture compression, and I could go on and on about what the dri driver lacks that will cause severe performance detriments.

Instead of looking to the driver as the fault of your system, look at what all the other 64-bit users have done right and ask what you are doing wrong.

As for "good enough" performance, that's akin to using a donkey to tow your car versus using the starter and just running the engine, and that is a very fair analogy. Nothing wrong with the donkey, I'm sure it's a fine donkey, but without miraculous genetic engineering that ass can't pull anything past 15 mph.
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Old 05-27-04, 08:05 AM   #58
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

i think "bugzilla.nvidia.com" would be a really great thing,
even when the driver stays closedsource for some time...

it would be *a lot* easier for nv to track bugs down and allow the coders to do
their work without less overhead.
remember: "it isn't a bug when its not in bugzilla "

maybe they get some sparetime out of this,
so they could contribute to this forum more frequent


cheers,
lars
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Old 05-27-04, 09:27 AM   #59
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabrilo
Who is paying you so much to advocate nvidia? Seriously, we are all paying customers of nvidia, and is it so unreasonable to expect drivers for our favorite distribution? Why must you be so upset with us?

I am very happy with their drivers so far (of course, I would like to see open source, but that's just me), and I am a bit disappointed because nvidia didn't release a fix for this issue, even though it was very predictable (we all knew exactly when Fedora Core 2 is coming out, and we all knew about the kernel issue). Fedora is de facto one of the most important distributions out there, because it sets standards, other distros are based on it, etc. That fact should be respected.

Sorry about the rant, but this is just my 2 cents and a plea to nvidia to get us some new drivers. I don't want to get a flame started

IMO it's not unreasonable at all, because if you are too damn incompetant to be able to recompile your kernel and get the ****ing thing to work, then you don't deserve to run linux.

fedora people are driving me nuts *omg nvidia sux because we're retarded and dont know how to compile a kernel* go back to windows, it will serve you better.
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Old 05-27-04, 09:52 AM   #60
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Default Re: Nvidia working on new driver for 2.6.5

I have run Fedora 1 and 2, RedHat since 5.2, Debian unstable, and currently have a Slack box as well as an FC2 box. I know how to compile my own kernel, and the NVidia issue is taken care of temporarily for me. What I do object to, however, is elitism. I know the intricacies of a Linux system, but I see no place for someone to say that just because someone doesn't know how to recompile a kernel, they are a moron and don't deserve to run Linux.

I see NVidia's reasoning for not open-sourcing their drivers, and I understand it takes time to support a new feature (which, by the way, will be in almost all standard distros that are based on post-2.6.6 kernels). Fedora users just happen to be on the forefront because Fedora is quite bleeding-edge, and therefore they're among the first to complain about the current drivers not working.

But Linux will never establish more prevalence on the desktop if less-experienced users are met with "Go back to Windows you moron"-type comments.

As far as my response to the whole topic, I say if you don't want to (or don't know how) to recompile your kernel, then use the standard nv driver -- it's fairly mature as far as 2D support, and NVidia will have an official driver soon enough. Besides, the standard kernel is better for performance with most other applications, so it is sort of silly to remove performance-enhancing features in an attempt to get an older driver to work. If you do happen to know how to solve the problem by recompiling, do that -- you are willing to devote the time to it, go ahead, it's not complicated for you. There's no need to get whipped into a frenzy about something so simple. You can talk about Fedora users as much as you want; they could just as easily say "you are driving me nuts with your overabundance of Linux elitism and zealotry".
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