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Old 05-21-04, 11:06 PM   #76
Ruined
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skynet
Firstly muzz I think you are being treated unfairly by the mods, they are picking on you for whatever reason, but it is their site so they have the power to do what they want, fair or not.
Forums have a feature for this type of discussion called "Email," located under the user's "Profile." Even if the users account is disabled they will still be able to read the email.

Quote:
I have a question; if ATi removes the adaptive AF or gives the option to disable it, will that make people happy?
Yes

Quote:
What will be the purpose of this?
Because the adaptive filter no matter how good still changes IQ - this has already been proven, and if the card is capable of full trilinear why not have the option of using it in case the adaptive filter does poorly in a current or future title?

Quote:
What will it prove?
That ATI is willing to play on the same ground this go around.

Quote:
And if you can get the better performance with virtually the exact same image quality, will you still disable the adaptive routines?
That is user preference.

Quote:
In retrospect ATi probably should have informed us all of how and why they were doing adaptive AF and how it differs from "pure" tri-AF (whatever that means).
Yup.

Quote:
And ATi just may provide the option.
As they should.
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Old 05-21-04, 11:06 PM   #77
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

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Originally Posted by muzz
Thats not true Max, but when you have discussions with the owner, and don't agree thats what I have SEEN ( never experienced mind you), and the feeling of the thread doesn't help matters Max.
Max you are a cool mod, keep up the good work. Remember what I said in PM man.

muzz
Ok it may not be true but the shoe just seemed to fit based on your posts/tone is all. I don't really understand what you just above though (kinda hard to follow).

I'd like for you to read these posts/threads with a cool head and tell me what you think after having done so.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=28091
and post #29 here: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...t=28087&page=2

The reason I ask you to do this is that you're coming across somewhat as "the victim" here lately it seems. You can talk all day long about how fair/impartial you are but we all know that talk is cheap, right? (BTW...you, as well as anyone, should know that my talk is not cheap because I've backed it up with action, time and effort by working out concerns with you that you've had in the past.)

I say this because the impression I'm left with after reading some of your recent posts is that of someone feigning neutrality while that doesn't seem to be the case at all. People here voice pro/con opinions for both ATI and NVIDIA all the time. You stand out though and bring attention to yourself by the moderators because of your "approach" (for lack of a better term). Most people say their piece and if others disagree with them, so be it. They don't go out chasing windmills in attempts to draw attention to the fact that they were disagreed with or predict their own banning.

Again Muzz, you stand out. I see members all the time that are flat out fanboys or who are just very strongly opinionated for either ATI or NVIDIA. They do not draw the attention that you do at times though. I think that you have some relevant and beneficial contributions to make in discussions here. However, your approach/style/whatever raises my eyebrow from time to time (not always, but at times like this...it does).

You seem to be pretty thin-skinned to me so please don't take this personally. You've brought this on yourself though and have made recent public statements/implications about NVNEWS that I find very, well, I don't think you exercised much tact or good judgement let's just say. I chose not to PM you based on your choice to make this public in the first place. I hope this helps to give you whatever it is you're looking for. I admit that I'm not sure what that is so this is my best effort with what I have to go on.
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I personally believe that us americans are unable to do so because osama.

People out there in our nation don't have that, And I believe that our education like such as south africa and such as the Iraq.

everywhere "such as". And I believe our education should help the US should help the south africa and the iraq and the asian countries so we can build up our future.
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Old 05-21-04, 11:27 PM   #78
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Well Max I read those thread/reminders, and I think they should be showed to many other BETTER members, as they obviously need a lesson also it seems.
I am sorry you think I am a victim( or that I THINK that), I never intended that to be the case, I am like anyone else who has thoughts on things.
And have my own demons...
There are many folks here that are NOWHERE near as impartial as I am.
My recent posts are in no way feigning nuetrality, I was very unhappy when I read the news about these Ops ( shown by my first sig change),then I learned that they asked for Tri in their own pdf(hence my 2nd sig change) now I am not so sure the OP is a bad thing( hence my current sig), but have continually stated that the hiding of it was a misjudgemnet.
I have never backed off from the hiding issue regardless.
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Old 05-21-04, 11:32 PM   #79
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Fair enough, perhaps my opinion that you feign neutrality was too much. There will always be many, many "gaps" in this kind of communication though and we all do the best we can with it. Well you may not think that you are portraying yourself as a victim...but I beg to differ.

EDIT: Oh you little stinker! You just wiped out that post of yours at EB!!!!

Congratulations, you've now lost all credibility and time of day that I care to give you any longer.


BEFORE...





...AND AFTER....

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I personally believe that us americans are unable to do so because osama.

People out there in our nation don't have that, And I believe that our education like such as south africa and such as the Iraq.

everywhere "such as". And I believe our education should help the US should help the south africa and the iraq and the asian countries so we can build up our future.
-- Miss Teen South Carolina


Last edited by Clay; 05-21-04 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 05-21-04, 11:38 PM   #80
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Forget that BS Max, search R3d if ya really wanna know...
If I was feigning anything I wouldn't have posted the fact thatIi think/thought/whatever that they are/were/whatever cheating there.
What would I posssibly have to gain from doing that?

Nothing bro, as I try and say what I honestly feel regardless of where I am.
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Old 05-21-04, 11:47 PM   #81
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

The competition is very ugly between Ati and Nvidia right now,

No reason to gut one another over it. I do not see you getting banned Muzz. At least I do not believe you will be. Personally, I can see good things to like/hate in both companies.

The adaptive filtering issue is dead to me now. After reading all available here, at Beyond3d, Rage3d, and the Ati chat logs I know how I feel. I don't hate anyone or think anyone is an 'idiot' because they do not share my perspective. It is just that, one perspective.
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Old 05-21-04, 11:48 PM   #82
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

omg, grow a spine muzz -your really gonna try your best to make this into something eh ?

Honestly I think your purposefully acting the in the manner you choose just to create problems, for no other reasons than to make this place as unpleasant as possible for others. period.

Just as your continuing to do at the moment. I must congratulate you in a job well done.

Last edited by walkndude; 05-22-04 at 12:11 AM.
 
Old 05-22-04, 12:29 AM   #83
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Seems like this issue with ATI (not what is going on in this forum at the moment) may really be ATI trying to protect their algorithm from Nvidia. As in this optimization can probably be duplicated with Nvidia hardware as it is or something close. This optimization is what gives ATI the lead when both AF and AA are both tested on both platforms in many games. Plus it doesn't help too much when ATI promoted a way to test their hardware with the competition which really unfairly influenced a number of reviewers to do less then they expected.

If this algorithm is as good as people say then why in the hell wasn't it broadcasted in the beginning? 20% is a huge number and to be quiet! Sounds to me ATI was trying to find a way to patent this and it probably won't be. Now is Nvidia figuring out this new technique? Optimizing their drivers to take advantage of it? I won't be to surprised if Nvidia will learn a hell alot from this and to the benefit of us all .
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Old 05-22-04, 12:33 AM   #84
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Thanks for steering back on topic noko. Apologies to everyone for the derailment but it was deemed necessary in this case.
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I personally believe that us americans are unable to do so because osama.

People out there in our nation don't have that, And I believe that our education like such as south africa and such as the Iraq.

everywhere "such as". And I believe our education should help the US should help the south africa and the iraq and the asian countries so we can build up our future.
-- Miss Teen South Carolina

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Old 05-22-04, 12:50 AM   #85
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Noko, thanks for the 'fresh' prospective...who knows, you may be on to something there.

BTW, good to see those Iwill boards still running. Brings back fond memories.
I had two of each and all are still running as far as I know.

Sorry Max, back to topic!
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Old 05-22-04, 02:07 AM   #86
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Exclamation Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Quote:
Ruined wrote:
Because the adaptive filter no matter how good still changes IQ - this has already been proven....
Please provide linkage and/or evidence of this.
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Old 05-22-04, 03:29 AM   #87
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Rytr,

I just ordered an Abit NF7-S from Newegg, looks like one of the Iwillys will get retired shortly . Now why IWILL didn't make a NF2 board is beyond me . Looks like I am back with Abit again. Now the NF7-S AGP slot is going to get a present .

Now getting back to ATI, normally ATI releases their high end first then the lower end parts shortly followed. In this round ATI released the slower part first. This makes me believe the X800 XTPE was an option that ATI had but didn't think was necessary until they saw how good the NV40 actually was performing. Remember the NV40 samples had many at 475mhz. That must had shocked ATI pretty good I think . In addition Nvidia changed fabs to IBM which had a Reputation of low yields and other problems which may have promted ATI to think the NV40 would be somewhat more late or have more problems (ala NV30) then it did. I really don't think ATI expected a 222mil transitor competitor with full DX9 capability working this early and this good.

Now compairing the technology of the two, ATI brought 3DC, temporal AA (which was already capable in the hardware ATI had two years ago), a slight improvment in PS2 capability, GDR3, this secretitive 1 year old adaptive filtering capability and alot of speed based on two year old technology. Compared that to what Nvidia dishes out, full DX9, SM3 capable, improved AA, GDR3, a completely new design and much improvement in speed as well.

Bluntly 3DC is nothing compared to SM3, more of a gimmick (a useful one but still a gimmick) as far as I am concerned. The NV40 already won the hearts of the programmars such as John Carmack and Tim Sweeney and I am sure many others because of the many tomorrow features that are not on the R420. So there is only one other thing that ATI could claim and that is overall speed to swing this round over to them from a buyers standpoint which means benchmarks.

Now who gave and wrote up these presentations about ATI's filtering? He/She didn't know of the adaptive filtering method which has been in use for 1 year? Was this presentation ever checked for accuracy? Reviewed to be technically correct and not mislead? No one in the driver section, engineering section noticed this error on the presentation either and brought it to the attention of ATI? Then what else is wrong with the presentation if that is the case? Is ATI that careless to blantantly let someone speak for the company without even checking the validity of what is written on there most newest and most complex design chip they ever built? Is this the only mistake which mislead many reviewers to perform tests showing large performance differences over the 6800 series just coincidence? I could go on and on. It could very well be an error but I don't believe it, I believe it was deliberate to save some face for ATI's lack of advancement except for a good speed increase. ATI wanted 60% of the market I believe in Asia, plus more market share in general and had some forward looking expectations. Except ATI did wake up a sleeping giant, Nvidia, who did real good so far this round. There is no doubt in my mind that Nvidia will dramatically improve the performance of the NV40 though the drivers. I see ATI having another option and that is price reduction. Looking at the two boards I think it is obvious that the cost of the 6800 series is higher and ATI may have some leeway there. A $449 X800 XTPE and a $349 X800 Pro would do some damage to Nvidia I believe. Their partners may not be too happy with a price cut but maybe that is the only way now for ATI to increase their market share this round. The battle I think is also being fought with the manufactureres of the cards, if ATI can keep on swaying more over to them due to better returns on investment then ATI will get more cards out there that way as well but that means maximizing the price and not cutting it.

Now when does DoomIII come out?

Last edited by noko; 05-22-04 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 05-22-04, 04:10 AM   #88
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz
Ok chris if you say so it must be true.....
But you are wrong here.
How would you say goodbye?
Thats what I thought, the discussion is behind closed doors..
Matyr?
What are you talking about you see right through me?
Dude I am telling the truth, whats the matter? Does the format bother ya?
If so sorry.
How many guys that are about to be ever say anything? Very few...
Why?
Cuz most are not aware of it.
Your such a show pony.
Oh no the big bad NV fansite man is going to ban little old me for speaking my mind!
Look fellow Fanatic's, see how eeevil they are...I am teh heros for my beloved ATi !!!!

Don't let the door smack ya on the way out !
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Old 05-22-04, 04:14 AM   #89
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

If Atis "Trylinear" gvies the same image quality as normal trilinear, i.e. its ability to hide mip map transitions, then why would you disable it when comparing against Nvidias trilinear?

The its doing more work (which doesnt cause any noticeable changes to image quality) is ludicrous. You dont for example say a tile based renderer is cheating because its cunning enough to not render soemthing thats not seen or rule ATIs 6xfsaa incomparable to Nvidias 8xfsaa despite them, producing comparable image quality (bar on alphas and maybe some games where text gets blurred?)
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Old 05-22-04, 04:29 AM   #90
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Default Re: Sudhian takes on ATI *Trylinear* optimisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan2097
If Atis "Trylinear" gvies the same image quality as normal trilinear, i.e. its ability to hide mip map transitions, then why would you disable it when comparing against Nvidias trilinear?

The its doing more work (which doesnt cause any noticeable changes to image quality) is ludicrous. You dont for example say a tile based renderer is cheating because its cunning enough to not render soemthing thats not seen or rule ATIs 6xfsaa incomparable to Nvidias 8xfsaa despite them, producing comparable image quality (bar on alphas and maybe some games where text gets blurred?)
Yes, most hardware sites find deceiving guidelines a ludicrous argument too and enjoy not being told about hidden optimizations and algorithms that hide themselves in image quality testing programs.
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