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Old 10-17-02, 06:01 PM   #1
SuperStinky
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Exclamation FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

As of last night, the kernel-*-2.4.18-17 packages are out and on the RHN servers. Any idea when the new RPMS for nVidia display cards will be out ?
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Old 10-17-02, 11:12 PM   #2
Nuggett
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Unhappy The current RPM's dont work with the new kernel.

I'm a nubie so please bear with me.

I got the new kernel RPMs and installed them using the nifty update program. The new kernel won't let X start up. I get an NVdriver error. I take it this is why you are asking about new driver RPM's?

Will the new ones have to be installed while logged into the new kernel? If so, can the entire process be done in the command line mode since X won't start?

I set my system to boot into runlevel 3 to ease the pain and X runs just fine with the old kernel.
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Old 10-17-02, 11:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: The current RPM's dont work with the new kernel.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nuggett
I'm a nubie so please bear with me.

I got the new kernel RPMs and installed them using the nifty update program. The new kernel won't let X start up. I get an NVdriver error. I take it this is why you are asking about new driver RPM's?
Yes. nVidia has to create a new set of RPMs containing the drivers and other compoents for each new Red Hat kernel release. And, as of this writing, they haven't yet.


Quote:
Will the new ones have to be installed while logged into the new kernel?
No, but in my experience, it's best to download all the files you need, print the instructions (or at least have them in a text file), then boot into the new kernel. X won't be able to start (due to the modules not being installed yet), but just go through the instructions. Once you've completed that, as root do an "init 3" and then an "init 5" to get X running. Things should be smooth from there on.

Quote:
If so, can the entire process be done in the command line mode since X won't start?
See above answer (yes).

Quote:
I set my system to boot into runlevel 3 to ease the pain and X runs just fine with the old kernel.
Yes, to run X, you'll have to choose the old kernel until the new RPMs come out (or compile them yourself, but that's a more complex proceedure).

Good luck!
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Old 10-18-02, 12:01 AM   #4
perryd
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I assume you updated the kernel using up2date. Usually up2date will complain because installing the Nvidia drivers changes some of the libraries that RH installed.

What I usually do before using up2date to update the kernel is go back to nv as the video driver by un-editing XF86Config-4. I also logout to a console and remove both the nvidia drivers as follows:
rpm -e NVIDIA_GLX
rpm -e NVIDIA_kernel

Then I reboot and run up2date from X. Once the new kernel is installed, I reinstall the nvidia drivers using source rpms from the command line and return to the nvidia version of XF86Config-4. I actually keep the original "nv" version and the "nvidia" version, so I am not really re-editing the file.

Finally, I always install the kernel source and update the kernel source as there are several applications such as FlightGear that require the kernel headers that match the running kernel in order to compile.

This is also necessary to installl from source rpms. By installing from source rpms, you are sure that the nvidia drivers match the running kernel. This is well explained in the pdf file from nvidia.

Hope this was clear.

Last edited by perryd; 10-18-02 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 10-18-02, 02:19 AM   #5
Andy Mecham
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Quote:
Yes. nVidia has to create a new set of RPMs containing the drivers and other compoents for each new Red Hat kernel release. And, as of this writing, they haven't yet.
This is why we provide the kernel SRPM and source tarball; if there isn't a precompiled binary RPM available for your specific kernel, you'll need to rebuild one for your system. As long as you're using a kernel with a matching kernel source tree (which is pretty easy to do if you're using up2date, as long as you keep kernel-source up2date as well), rebuilding the SRPM is painless.

--andy
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Old 10-18-02, 05:05 PM   #6
dwbrewer
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Unhappy FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Mecham
This is why we provide the kernel SRPM and source tarball; if there isn't a precompiled binary RPM available for your specific kernel, you'll need to rebuild one for your system. As long as you're using a kernel with a matching kernel source tree (which is pretty easy to do if you're using up2date, as long as you keep kernel-source up2date as well), rebuilding the SRPM is painless.

--andy
When you are a newbie like I am, a kernel update
is painful when trying to rebuild the nvidia drivers and reload them. I could rebuild the drivers against the source, but when I tried to update and install them, I would get driver already loaded. I saw someone else's post about --force and that worked.

I am sorry, but as a Windows 2000 administrator, we could not deploy this OS on the desktop and maintain the OS and drivers as easily as WIN2k.

On the other hand, I am learning a lot about Linux and being challenged to find solutions.
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Old 10-18-02, 05:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

Quote:
Originally posted by dwbrewer
When you are a newbie like I am, a kernel update
is painful when trying to rebuild the nvidia drivers and reload them. I could rebuild the drivers against the source, but when I tried to update and install them, I would get driver already loaded. I saw someone else's post about --force and that worked.

I am sorry, but as a Windows 2000 administrator, we could not deploy this OS on the desktop and maintain the OS and drivers as easily as WIN2k.

On the other hand, I am learning a lot about Linux and being challenged to find solutions.
Well, You only need the NVidia drivers for 3D stuff so unless you have an office full of gamers, I don't see the problem. Having said that, I'm having trouble rebuilding the source rpms on the new RH kernel. I've built these for years and haven't had a problem till now so it isn't a newbie error. Getting all sorts of compile errors. Is anyone else having this problem?

Matt
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Old 10-18-02, 05:42 PM   #8
dwbrewer
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Default Re: Re: FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

Quote:
Originally posted by crazymadness
Well, You only need the NVidia drivers for 3D stuff so unless you have an office full of gamers, I don't see the problem. Having said that, I'm having trouble rebuilding the source rpms on the new RH kernel. I've built these for years and haven't had a problem till now so it isn't a newbie error. Getting all sorts of compile errors. Is anyone else having this problem?

Matt
Architectural /Engineering firm. CAD. Heavy graphics.
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Old 10-18-02, 06:09 PM   #9
bwkaz
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Default Re: FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

Quote:
Originally posted by dwbrewer
but when I tried to update and install them, I would get driver already loaded.
This is why I personally don't like RPMs. I'm just curious here, did you try to rpm -Uvh after you rebuilt the RPMs? If not, try it next time -- -U tells RPM to upgrade. So if there's already one RPM installed that provides the same thing as what the RPM you're installing provides, then if you don't tell it to upgrade, then you might have better luck with that.

Quote:
I am sorry, but as a Windows 2000 administrator, we could not deploy this OS on the desktop and maintain the OS and drivers as easily as WIN2k.
Now one thing I'm wondering about this statement is, how long have you been using Linux? It doesn't sound like long. How long did it take your organization (in man-months or whatnot, not just amount of time) to learn every last nuance of Windows, so that you do feel comfortable using it instead? Not just 2000, but Windows in general? And how long do you spend re-learning things when fundamental user-interface changes happen? In Linux, once you learn how to do what you need (at the command line), and how to find documentation, there aren't really very many fundamental changes in the way things work. It is, after all, aiming to be POSIX compliant, which puts a guarantee on the user interface -- at least at the CLI level. There will be changes behind the scenes when binary compatibility is finally broken (which will happen when Linux 3.x.x comes out), but you won't see any of them at the user level. You'll just have to recompile some programs that use the old interface -- most likely only glibc.

Quote:
On the other hand, I am learning a lot about Linux and being challenged to find solutions.
Well, that's good at least. It can't be bad to be learning things.
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Old 10-18-02, 06:11 PM   #10
bwkaz
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Default Re: Re: FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

Quote:
Originally posted by crazymadness
Well, You only need the NVidia drivers for 3D stuff so unless you have an office full of gamers, I don't see the problem. Having said that, I'm having trouble rebuilding the source rpms on the new RH kernel. I've built these for years and haven't had a problem till now so it isn't a newbie error. Getting all sorts of compile errors. Is anyone else having this problem?

Matt
What compile errors? It's hard to say if I've ever gotten these errors when I don't know what they are...
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Old 10-18-02, 06:41 PM   #11
dwbrewer
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Default Re: Re: FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

Quote:
Originally posted by bwkaz
This is why I personally don't like RPMs. I'm just curious here, did you try to rpm -Uvh after you rebuilt the RPMs? If not, try it next time -- -U tells RPM to upgrade. So if there's already one RPM installed that provides the same thing as what the RPM you're installing provides, then if you don't tell it to upgrade, then you might have better luck with that.
I did use -Uvh. It still gave me driver alread loaded message. It loaded after adding the --force.

Quote:
Now one thing I'm wondering about this statement is, how long have you been using Linux? It doesn't sound like long.
I have toyed with RH 6.2 and 7.3 before loading 8.0. Maybe 1 month experience. I like the evolution of the product.

Quote:
How long did it take your organization (in man-months or whatnot, not just amount of time) to learn every last nuance of Windows, so that you do feel comfortable using it instead? Not just 2000, but Windows in general?
We spent 1 year deploying to 25 locations throughtout the U.S. We had training classes onsite for the administrators for 1 week. I am still learning the nuances, but I can manage each of the 25 sites from my desk. I can use Funk proxy and take control of a remote machine and walk someone through how to accomplish a task instead of blindly relying on them to tell me what they see. I manage antivirus definition rollouts from each of these offices domain controllers remotely also. I would like to visit a site that has this implemented in Linux to see how they are managing sites.

Quote:
And how long do you spend re-learning things when fundamental user-interface changes happen?
There was a learning curve from NT4.0 to Win2k.
Not much of a curve from Win2k to XP. I am sure Linux has it's strong points. I am also sure that a Service Pack install in Win2k (What a kernel update would be in Linux?) would probably not force me to reinstall a video driver.
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Old 10-18-02, 07:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Re: Re: FYI: New RH Kernel RPMs out

Quote:
Originally posted by dwbrewer
I did use -Uvh. It still gave me driver alread loaded message. It loaded after adding the --force.
OK. That sounds like it might be a problem with the versioning on the package that got built then. That's nothing you can really do anything about, though...

Quote:
We had training classes onsite for the administrators for 1 week. I am still learning the nuances, but I can manage each of the 25 sites from my desk.
How long had you been using Windows before those classes? How long did it take you to get used to the way Windows does things the first time you started using it? I'm assuming these classes were just training for 2K, right? Or did they start at the very beginning -- "this is how you boot up. This is how you log in. This is how you run a program" type of thing? I sort of doubt that...

But because of the completely different way Linux works, it's almost better to assume that you're at that point, rather than already a sysadmin, when you do comparisons like what you feel comfortable doing with different OSes. I don't mean for that to be any kind of personal attack or anything, just an observation that that kind of thinking is sometimes better.

Quote:
I would like to visit a site that has this implemented in Linux to see how they are managing sites.
So would I. I'm just a lowly user, not a sysadmin at a company or anything like that. My guess, for the remote admin aspect at least, would be some sort of X repeater program. The user sets their DISPLAY variable to the computer and port that this repeater is listening on, and the repeater sends all requests to both the user's real X server, and the admin's X server. Obviously things would have to be coordinated so that normal users couldn't get this to forward to them from somewhere else, but the basic idea is there.

Edit: for the antivirus definitions, for one, there are like ten viruses for Linux/Unix floating around, and the ones that do exist rely on getting root access. If they only ever got lowly-user access, then they wouldn't physically be able to change critical files, because of permissions -- and you can even set flags on files, like "immutable" and "append-only", so that even root can't change a file (if it's immutable) or do anything but add to it (if it's append-only).

But even still, you can do fun things with NFS (or some similar network filesystem), so that your definitions are all on one machine, "shared" across the network. Then all machines talk to that "share" whenever they need access to their definitions, just like it's on their local drive. Then, all you have to do is update one set of definitions -- the ones on the server -- and all the clients will use the new definitions next time they scan.

Quote:
I am also sure that a Service Pack install in Win2k (What a kernel update would be in Linux?) would probably not force me to reinstall a video driver.
It's not really a kernel update, since for a service pack in Windows, your kernel (the vast majority of the time) doesn't change. From 2K to XP (or from 95 to 98, or from 98 to Me, or from NT to 2K), your kernel does change, which is why you need all new drivers for that (well, probably).
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Last edited by bwkaz; 10-18-02 at 08:06 PM.
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