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Old 07-22-04, 06:40 AM   #25
msxyz
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

I wish AMD could reach the popularity of Intel!

I usually try to champion the cause of AMD but many customers don't want to listen to any reason. Nowadays, a Prescott 2.8GHz with a FX5200/Ati9200 is a real best seller. (and people pretend to play at insane settings, too )
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Old 07-22-04, 07:09 AM   #26
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

Quote:
Originally Posted by msxyz
Some of you fail to realize that, to this day, ATi is in a much better position than NVidia. They've secured contracts with all the major PC manufacturers, and they've much better products in the high volume mainstream market. The GeForce 6800 is a fine piece of hardware and I consider it superior to current ATi offerings but it's not enough.

I work in a rather big shop and I've seen the turn of events. The only NVidia card people still ask me for is the 5900XT; as for the rest, we've litterally dozens of Fx5200/5600 nobody wants that we throw in the low end PCs we sell. The 9600 in all its flavours is the best seller and, with the 9800 reaching the same price range of the 5900XT, people are willing to spend a few bucks more to purchase ATi's card. Brand recognition surely has helped NVidia in the past year and saved her from complete disaster with the FX line, but even common people have now accepted ATi as a worth competitor.

I think NVidia needs a good midrange offering as fast as possible to win back OEM contracts and the public opinion confidence.

Well, it appears it is your shop that has the shortcomings, not including the 5700 series and probably allowing ppl to walk out the door with 9600SE's or any other card with a 64 bit memory bus...

Both companies offer a robust midrange, including cards that are not in production any more, but still circulate through the consumer channel...

NV: 5600U (whether you like it or not, it's still midrange compared to the performance of the actual low-end cards out now), 5700NU, 5700U, 5800NU, and the inexpensive flavors of 5900...

ATI: 9500P (if you can fnd one), 9600P, 9600XT, 9700NP, 9700P, and the inexpensive flavors of 9800...

... and the whole "public opinion confidence" thing... well, I really think it's split down the middle, and not as important as you emphasized. The OEM market is the bread and butter, and features a totally different dynamic than the enthusiast market (of which a large majority for some reason thinks that the companies only stay afloat BECAUSE of the enthusiast market when in fact as I've stated before they are providing and have been providing a great bonus of a service to the enthusiast market for years by offering us the kind of cards/features they have, creating marketing schemes and spending advertising dollars, and being involved in the enthusiast community itself), and I do believe NV has the market share lead. IMO they both deserve equal pieces of the pie, as they both have excellent product. For the OEM. And for the enthusiast.
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Old 07-22-04, 07:50 AM   #27
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

We do have both 5700 and 5700U, but I've noticed a lukewarm reception for these cards. Probably it's because in the same price segment there are better products (respectively the 9600Turbo/Pro and 5900XT)

As I said, it's a matter of perception from the public. Until the last year, there was NVidia or nothing. Now many people know about ATis "9600" and "9800" and ask for them rather than their equivalent from NVidia. If someone enters my shop and says "gimme a Volari Duo 'cuz is teh card", I'll give him a Volari, regardless of what I think of it. It's my job to sell, not to question the tastes of my customers.

Only if they ask for help in choosing a card, then I can voice my opinion (I usally ask what is their intended use, how much are they willing to pay, etc.)

But even people that ask for an opinion -sometimes- are suspicious about what I suggest because of the "imprinting" they've received from marketing campaigns and rumors (this happens quite often when I suggest AMD over Intel "Is this AMD good as Intel?")

Last edited by msxyz; 07-22-04 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 07-22-04, 08:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined
Yeh that was PR BS but it wasn't the same as 3dfx's V3 PR BS. 3dfx actually didn't have a feature and claimed they had one that was just as effective, ATI is doing the same today.
Actually, nVidia did the same with the FX5800; they claimed it had "full 8 pixel pipelines", which it did not have. Granted, it had 8 "zixel" pipelines, but it just isn't the same thing. Moreover, nVidia claimed floating point render target support for FX5800, but the support isn't exposed in the drivers even today. ( See e.g. http://www.beyond3d.com/misc/traod_dx9perf/ ) So, nVidia does that too, as do all the other vendors...

It seems to be a common trend for all companies in the industry that the marketing droids lie their pants off until the company's engineers' faces turn from red into purple. Then the droids know it's time to stop for a while.
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Old 07-22-04, 08:28 AM   #29
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

Quote:
Originally Posted by -=DVS=-
You compareing 32 bit tnt image quality to old voodoo 3 16/22 bit, witch affected image on global level on pretty mutch every game that came out soon after, 32 bit colors not equal FP 32 precision ,there are no games to show need for it is there ? other then mistery FarCry 1.3 patch with overkill HDR

Not like every game will suddenly use FP32 as minimum aka Unreal 3 , who will be released prolly in few years... so your point is moot it was already said by devs SM 2 vs SM3 is speed moustly only few specific effects can't be done.... so all current games and future games till next gen will run in full glory on both cards , sure few of them will have few extra for Nvidia others will have Extra for ATI
so whats your point Ruined ??
http://www.3dgw.com/hardware/video/voodoo33000/

"Graphic Quality
One issue for the Voodoo3 to face that we really didn't have to account for prior to the release of the RivaTNT chipset is Visual Quality. Prior to TNT it just wasn't an argument. The RivaTNT2 promises to provide us with 32 bit color with very little performance cost whereas 3dfx has chosen to remain at 16 bit with the Voodoo3. At the time of this writing however there aren't any games that support 32 bit color worth mentioning and I predict by the end of the year there will be a handful at most. If you are still not convinced take a look at the screenshots below and see for yourself how good 16 bit color can look."

Quote:
Oh and what do you mean its not same PR its even worse , PR of Nvidia promised free AA , stelar performance , all we got after months of waiting was super hot / loud / card with subpar performance 3DFX never made any ridiculous claims only 32bit vs 16bit withc wasn't a big deal in old days , moust people playd in 16 bit anyways on TNTs for speed i recall ATIs crappy Rage 128Pro series ran 32bit pretty well.
lol you are taking this far too seriously. The difference in the PR is in the features & numbers similarity plus the similar spin 3dfx and ATI are using.
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Last edited by Ruined; 07-22-04 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 07-22-04, 08:29 AM   #30
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revgen
Uh Oh!! It's another conspiracy theory
Yup!!
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Old 07-22-04, 08:30 AM   #31
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetto
meh... I think ATI is in far better position than 3dfx was then. Besides, comparison is really apples to oranges, since 32bit color support in tnt2 was relatively fast, while sm3.0 seems to be an overkill in the current generation of hardware. None of 6800 will be able to handle heavy sm3 usage without a huge performance hit, while 32 color was not so hard on tnt2.... Just my 2 cents.
Many people were saying the same thing about TNT2's 32-bit color before more games came out to utilize it... i.e. tnt2 couldn't handle games in 32-bit, 32-bit is too slow compared to 16-bit, etc...

/me cues creepy music

http://www.tweak3d.net/articles/16vs32/

"Conclusion

Is there a clear winner between 16-bit and 32-bit rendering? In my opinion, no... not at this time, and there won't be until all games that utilize 32-bit rendering actually offer sufficient graphical improvement to warrant the performance hit. The visual quality is definitely more impressive when playing Q3Test, but not in all areas. Some items in the game clearly look better, while others look almost the same. Are these extra features worth a massive hit to your frame rate? Sure, if you have the performance to spare... but not everyone does."
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Last edited by Ruined; 07-22-04 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 07-22-04, 08:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

Voodoo3 was alot better than the TNT2 lol, but thats an old arguement.

Voodoo5 > GF2 GTS
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Old 07-22-04, 09:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

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Originally Posted by Noxis
Voodoo5 > GF2 GTS
In FSAA quality, yes. In everything else, not a chance.
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Old 07-22-04, 09:56 AM   #34
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

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In FSAA quality, yes. In everything else, not a chance.

Couldnt stand FSAA, the V5 5500 was better in real world gaming than the GTS.
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Old 07-22-04, 10:58 AM   #35
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

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Originally Posted by Noxis
Couldnt stand FSAA, the V5 5500 was better in real world gaming than the GTS.
You must have smoked weed or something

Or perhaps its your memory? Ahh, I don't blame ya, we're all getting old
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Old 07-22-04, 11:02 AM   #36
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Default Re: X800 vs 6800 = Voodoo3 vs TNT2

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You must have smoked weed or something

Or perhaps its your memory? Ahh, I don't blame ya, we're all getting old
I was at Uni at the time I had a V5 mate had a GTS. Tried both cards in both rigs and the GTS came out best in 3DMark but if you wanted IQ and FPS the V5 was better, thats the games a the time coz nothing used Hardware T&L that the GF2 owned on that the V5 didnt support.
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