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Old 08-03-04, 04:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazar
sry I was playing the game

wrt to the shadows stay posted for a few more examples of what I am talking about.. it does not appear to be the same case with all the models... it just depends on their location...

I'll try and post to give an idea of what I am talking about in more detail
Those shots dont really prove anything, ill go get a coffee can and shine a light at it with a pencil in front, but i expect the same result. I dont know what else you think the shadow is supposed to look like

Unless you are at a very different angle than the light source, the shadow will appear to be the same shape as the object casting it, its just how it is.
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Old 08-03-04, 04:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

I'll just put a disclaimer out there...

I have been spending some time with the game just to check it out... this stood out to me from having gone back to the beginning when i was making a coupla runs using FRAPS which is why I went back to check it out...

as far as I can tell after checking during later levels... the shadows for most things are accurate and rendered properly...
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Old 08-03-04, 04:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Well, i just experimented with a pringles can and a pencil, and i figured it out.

Shadows WILL look like they do in those screen shots, they are correct. The problem comes when a shadow should be soft. I dont believe there are any floating shadows in the game (theres deffinitely no reason that some shadows cast by the flashlight float where others dont... that doesnt make sense) its just that some should have softer edges because of the distance and other lighting. In the Doom 3 engine this just isnt possible, so it ends up looking incorrect.

Thats all it is, i really dont think anything is floating. If you do some real-life experimentation, real shadows do look like the ones you showed, just much softer edges.
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Old 08-03-04, 04:42 PM   #28
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNKILL
Well, i just experimented with a pringles can and a pencil, and i figured it out.

Shadows WILL look like they do in those screen shots, they are correct. The problem comes when a shadow should be soft. I dont believe there are any floating shadows in the game (theres deffinitely no reason that some shadows cast by the flashlight float where others dont... that doesnt make sense) its just that some should have softer edges because of the distance and other lighting. In the Doom 3 engine this just isnt possible, so it ends up looking incorrect.

Thats all it is, i really dont think anything is floating. If you do some real-life experimentation, real shadows do look like the ones you showed, just much softer edges.
Right. Soft shadows come from non-point light sources - the area being shadowed may only see a fraction of the light, thus it is not entirely inside or outside the shadow. CaptNKILL, to better simulate Doom style lighting in the real world, you should use a very small light like an LED keychain light or flashlight bulb without the surrounding mirror. Also, try to minimize bounced light, as Doom3 does not simulate this either (that's why the shadows are completely black if there is only 1 light source).
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Old 08-03-04, 04:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

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Originally Posted by Zeno
Right. Soft shadows come from non-point light sources - the area being shadowed may only see a fraction of the light, thus it is not entirely inside or outside the shadow. CaptNKILL, to better simulate Doom style lighting in the real world, you should use a very small light like an LED keychain light or flashlight bulb without the surrounding mirror. Also, try to minimize bounced light, as Doom3 does not simulate this either (that's why the shadows are completely black if there is only 1 light source).
Yeah, i was considering the bounced light myself because the bathroom walls are all lenolium tile, and are very reflective. My flashlight lit the whole room up with no other light sources.

But i dont think i have an LED flashlight... i have a small one from a pen, but its red, and so is the pringles can so it may hamper the experiment.

Well, i just did it here in my room and you are right, it is significantly sharper this way, and looks almost identical to the light shown in the game. Id say that if they are using a floating shadow (which i really really really doubt at this point) they are doing a great job, because it looks pretty much perfect.
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Old 08-03-04, 05:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNKILL
Well, i just did it here in my room and you are right, it is significantly sharper this way, and looks almost identical to the light shown in the game. Id say that if they are using a floating shadow (which i really really really doubt at this point) they are doing a great job, because it looks pretty much perfect.
Cool . I think Doom's lighting may look a bit off to some people simply because we are not used to point lights in the absence of bounced lighting. One set of photos that shows a real world situation that is close to this idealization are shots from the moon landing.....the sun is almost a point light source and the only bounced light comes from the ground. Some of these pics look very Doom3-esque:

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/solarsy...leftovers.html
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Old 08-03-04, 05:36 PM   #31
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazar
the floating effect I mentioned can be seen in the shots I have posted... I think
You're not alone, Sazar. The shadow of the pipe next to the stairs near the middle looks like it's floating. The top portion that's being projected against the airlock doesn't look right, and so is the bottom half projected against the floor. Is the floor inclined? The floating shadow makes the entire surface of the floor and airlock parallel to the plane of the pipe. Was this taken from a multiplayer map? Can you get another player to play with you and take a pic of the shadow from different angles while you flash the light against the pipe?
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Old 08-03-04, 05:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeno
Cool . I think Doom's lighting may look a bit off to some people simply because we are not used to point lights in the absence of bounced lighting. One set of photos that shows a real world situation that is close to this idealization are shots from the moon landing.....the sun is almost a point light source and the only bounced light comes from the ground. Some of these pics look very Doom3-esque:
Actually I think a lot of people have already been exposed to such lighting. An example of a point light would be the tiny flash from a disposable camera. Most people try to use that tiny flash as the camera's main source of light and not expose for ambient lighting. The shutter will be too fast or the film will be too slow to capture most of the ambient and bounced lighting. As a result they get a picture with harsh shadows and dark backgrounds, just like Doom 3.
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Old 08-03-04, 05:47 PM   #33
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

...so how will all this make kids more violent?
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Old 08-03-04, 05:48 PM   #34
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Does anyone have a 3d modeling program? Attempt to copy that scene (simplified of course ) with a cylinder, a wall behind it, a "railing" and a light source aimed at that angle.

Im still sticking to it. I know what shadows look like, and they look pretty damn similar to the ones in these shots (softer, but the same shape), and i dont know what you guys think they are supposed to look like if these are wrong.
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Old 08-03-04, 06:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

I just loaded up Doom 3 to check this out, and it does appear as though there's something funky going on with the shadows cast from the railing. Although I can't see a reason that the shadows from the railing would be different from the shadows from anything else...
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Old 08-03-04, 06:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: Doom 3 pre-rendered "dynamic shadows" ?

Quote:
Does anyone have a 3d modeling program? Attempt to copy that scene (simplified of course ) with a cylinder, a wall behind it, a "railing" and a light source aimed at that angle.
As you wish, my lord:



And the exact same scene, but with a different camera angle:





So yes, as you can see it's quite an optical illusion that the shadow is "flat". It's because of the angle that the light is being cast, and the position of the viewer. Because the light source is coming from right next to the viewpoint, the shadow itself looks like it's being cast exactly the same no matter where you move around, even though the shadow itself is in fact adapting to the background. The reason this is particularly noticable with railings is because they're so thin and the light source is so close to them, that their shadow is extremely ridged and projected on a much larger scale, unlike with a larger object from far away where the shadow is small and only cast over a small area. So yes, the shadows are perfectly acurate in Doom 3, which is exactly WHY it looks fake and "flat": nothing in real life is perfect, there's always distortions whether it be the bobbing of our heads or light sources that are area based rather than point based (not to mention radiosity and specularity!).

Deus Ex: Invisible War and Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomarrow (the mercenary flashlights) also have this strange "flat shadow" artifact, since their light-casting systems are very similar to Doom 3's.
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