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Old 08-04-04, 01:35 PM   #1
Intel17
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Default My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Ok, since there are a bunch of arguments between Doom3 and FarCry's engine, ill give you guys my ideas.

On the technical side, FarCry, does use many advanced features which Doom3 does not have, such as HDR, SM3.0 (Not IQ boosting, but allows for larger instruction counts, faster), 3Dc, Offset mapping, etc.

Also FarCry, can do Real-Time lighting indoors, with real time stencil shadow volumes, but it is at the developers discression whether an object casts a correct shadow and also dynamic lights are artists discression as well.

However, FarCry is VERY taxing on machines and does not scale well on older systems without a HUGE quality Drop (i've tested FarCry on my R9800, GF4, GF3 and even GF2) and can safely say this engine was designed with PS2.0 capable cards in mind for a maximum visual flair.

So on a PURELY technical/features wise sense, FarCry > Doom 3


Doom 3 takes a more elegant approach in its rendering. The guys at id decided they would like to present the same experience on DX7-DX9 cards with a few variations. So, Doom 3 does not have many advanced features for DX9+ cards. However, with the technology they used, they managed to make an extremely beautiful presentation, and not only does it look amazing on DX9 cards, it BASICALLY looks the same on a GeForce 3 (I've tested it), minus the lower texture quality. Also, the Lighting looks superb on everything because they use dynamic lights/shadows almost everywhere.

Scalability Doom3 > FarCry

Now, FarCry has very bad netcode and on a broadband connection its nearly unplayable. Doom3, I can host a server on my connect with 64K upload and have 3 clients with 100> pings.

NetCode Doom3 > FarCry

Audio,

Doom3 does all its audio on the CPU while giving Extremely high quality, and basically giving the same presentation on all PC's.

FarCry, doesnt sound as good IMO. and Im sure Audio is done via the Soundcard.

For most users Doom3 > FarCry in audio

And finally in Speed, well no explination needed

Doom 3 > FarCry.

I hope this made some sense Please dont flame me either, this is just me trying to help everyone out
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Old 08-04-04, 02:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Now THAT was a good, objective post. I still think you overestimate the importance of some of the DX 9.0c features Far Cry supports (such as SM 3.0), and Doom 3 actually does support all of them only they're called something different since it uses OpenGL, but other than that I applaud your effort to get some actual facts out there instead of the rampant speculation I've been seeing. Props to you, Intel17.
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Old 08-04-04, 02:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Agreed. That's an excellent, very objective post. Good job, man!


Here's hoping that GLSL gets released soon - I'd love to see GLSL updates for Doom 3, and GLSL will probably bring around a boom of OpenGL games. This = good. DirectX is nice for the goodies it produces, but it's something of a pain to program (compared to OGL) and tends to being CPU limited.
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Old 08-04-04, 02:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Ninjaman, many of your posts are saying Doom 3 is more advanced. Is lighting/shadowing really so important, that it can outweigh the benefits of heavy Pixel Shader use? Could you please give me your take on Doom 3 engine V.S. FarCry's engine?
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Old 08-04-04, 02:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

excellent job. couldnt have said it better myself, intel17... or should i say JOHN CARMACK?
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Old 08-04-04, 02:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

OpenGL can use pixel and vertex shaders just as much as Direct 3D, and there are several areas in Doom 3 where pixel shaders are blatantly used (like windows for example). The features you cite are actually supported in Doom 3, if not used as often. After all, there are no oceans on Mars so the water effect isn't really needed. Far Cry does support limited stencil shadowing but cannot accurately render lights and shadows the way Doom 3 does. It uses ambient lights and lightmaps in almost every situation you can think of. Doom 3 has nothing but dynamic lights - in other words, ALL lighting is calculated on-the-fly instead of when a map is compiled. This is what allows it to render such impressive shadows in real-time, and why it is more advanced than Far Cry's engine. Notice how using your flashlight doesn't incur a big framerate hit like in Far Cry? Every other feature Far Cry sports, like shiny pipes, is supported in Doom 3 but simply not (over)used. Every single texture in Doom 3 has 4 maps: color, diffuse, specular, and normal, unlike Far Cry, and it STILL runs a lot better. Say what you will about texture resolution, but most of the time it is very high. Shall I go on?
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Old 08-04-04, 04:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Ninjaman, those are excellent points. Hell, you may have just rendered my technical comparison between FarCry and Doom 3, void

Ok ill now rewrite that section, here ya go.

Rewrite... .

FarCry uses many features of DirectX 9.0c, such as 3Dc, HDR, etc. So in a sense, FarCry could be looked upon as the technological leader. However, lets swing the pendilum the other way. It has been brought to my attention by Ninjaman that Doom 3 Engine can support all of these features and they simply arent used. Doom 3 also has a feature NO engine for at least 3 years will have...Unified lighting. Unreal Engine 3 you say? No, it is still possible to use lightmaps in Unreal Engine 3, and here's a quote from UE3's website

"Advanced Dynamic Shadowing. Unreal Engine 3 provides full support for three shadow techniques:
Dynamic stencil buffered shadow volumes supporting fully dynamic, moving light sources casting accurate shadows on all objects in the scene.
Dynamic characters casting dynamic soft, fuzzy shadows on the scene using 16X-oversampled shadow buffers.
Ultra high quality and high performance pre-computed shadow masks allow offline processing of static light interactions, while retaining fully dynamic specular lighting and reflections."

So Doom 3 clearly is the most advanced when it comes to lighting. And lighting is the KEY to an engine. Yes, Doom 3 has low polygon characters and yes it has low quality textures, but that is not because of the ENGINE, its due to the limitations of todays hardware. Doom 3's engine is much like Jimi Hendrix, the engine will not be fully appreciated until very fast hardware comes out, and we're able to see the full potential. Shaders you say? Well apparently Doom 3 has support for all the shaders possible in FarCry, however not extensively used at all because they want it to look the same on all supported hardware. So in conclusion, Doom3 is really the next step forward in RENDERING while FarCry, is the current gen with all new life breathed into it

Tell me what you guys think!!
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Old 08-04-04, 04:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Well said indeed! I couldn't have put it better myself. BTW, I wanted to take some screenshots to back up my claims.

Well I just ran through a couple Far Cry levels, and man - after playing Doom 3 for a couple of days, it looks a lot less impressive than I remember.

For one, the flashlight in Far Cry casts NO shadows. That's right. None. The models aren't really as detailed as you're thinking if you really look closely. Now for some Doom 3 flashlight shots! These were taken at 1600x1200 at the High quality setting, all else at default.

Elevator w/o Flashlight
Elevator w/ Flashlight
Imps Attacking (with lots of dynamic lighting!) - Pay attention to the closest Imp. There are about 4 light sources affecting his shadows. Pretty impressive.
More Imps.
Last one.

The 29 FPS in that last shot isn't accurate, you know how the framerate reader on id games is always going crazy. That scene was running around 40-45 like the other two Imp shots. Call me crazy, but the textures and lighting look incredible to me. No? You'll notice the models aren't that bad either. Play Far Cry and let me know when you find a creature whose fingers are modeled individually. And it's like this throughout the game. Outdoor pics to come!
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Old 08-04-04, 06:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

From my post, dont think Im entirely Doom3... FarCry's technology is a logical choice to go these days actually. Doom's technology is way too advanced for todays hardware. Hence why we got sub par textures. FarCry, uses really nice textures, and OK lighting to achieve its excellent graphics, and for a game like FarCry, Doom technology wouldnt work well with it.
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Old 08-04-04, 06:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Will it take a Farcry mod for Doom 3 to convince you?
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Old 08-04-04, 07:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Convince me of what?
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Old 08-04-04, 09:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: My unbiased Thoughts on the Doom 3 engine.

Just got through Hell and a couple of the following levels. The texture detail is absolutely jaw-dropping in these levels. Absolutely incredible level of immersion. Sorry, I didn't take screenshots. Just get there yourself and see. Far Cry has its share of low-res textures too, you know...and Doom 3's textures have about 4 times more data associated with them. The bumpmapping and specular highlights are particularly awesome looking in Hell. I really feel sorry for you guys who can't just play the game and have fun, this really is the best FPS I've played in a long time (probably since Half Life).
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