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Old 08-23-04, 06:01 AM   #61
D.K.Tronics
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

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No room for a retarded PC system next to my 65" Mitsubishi Diamond HDTV.. to each their own I guess. List make/model of your "pro" THX system. THX is hogwash btw and real enthusiasts would never mention it, I guess you aren't all that into HT.
Yet you have room for a poxy 733 mhz celeron based, 3 year old Geforce 3 DX8 based, 64Mb unified memory based system ?
We'll all see just how dated that system is when Xbox versions of Doom3, HL2, and Farcry come out. And you'll come screaming back to your PC. Oh and as for your "Elitist" audio comments, you obviously don't have a clue there, so why bother, as real enthusiasts would have such an option. Ever heard a true THX encoded DVD ? Thought not.



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Your opinion, period. I can't stand that controller, period. Period?
You can have an opinion that the sky is green, and the world is flat. That doesn't mean you are right. Do you see ?

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Bungie.
Where ?

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AA doesn't work in Halo genius, period
And once again you don't have a clue. Try using google and searching for AA in Halo. It can be done, but like YOU quoted "I guess maybe you need an IQ over 80 to figure it out and become proficient?"

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Unless you haven't worked it out yet, everyone who responded owns a PC AND and XBOX here. So I guess you're the one the "fringe" here. Try this next time. Go to EB, buy an XBOX. Go get a mod. Then look at all the cool stuff you can do with it (I'm not talking about pirating games either!). Try www.xbox-scene.com for more info.
I did mention that earlier on in my post, and 100% agree with what you just said. It's just a shame some idiots overlook that, because their Xbox zealousy jumps in and takes over.
Ooo, speaking of Xbox zealots, wheres Edge.
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Old 08-23-04, 07:01 AM   #62
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

ppl, tone the "conflict" or whatever down a bit, mk?
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Old 08-23-04, 08:09 AM   #63
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

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Originally Posted by Cheimison
That's one of the biggest problems with consoles, they never upgrade.
Ahh, but that's the thing: while the hardware itself doesn't get more powerful, developers get much more skilled at getting everything they can out of the console. Look at Halo 1, and then look at Halo 2 or Riddick: running on the same hardware, but the new games look infinantly better than the launch games. Very rarely do we see such large leaps in PC engines, the only game I can think of that increased graphics quality substantially without requiring better hardware is Max Payne (MP2 runs almost as well as MP1, but looks much better). Console games may not make the same leaps in graphics quality that PC games do through better hardware, but it's still very easy to see just how much better looking the games get as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by D.K.Tronics
We'll all see just how dated that system is when Xbox versions of Doom3, HL2, and Farcry come out.
Well duh, it's a 3 year old system that retails for $150, of course it's not going to be as powerful as a modern PC that costs 3 times as much. But for the price, it offers a very satisfactory experience. And as I've said, my PC isn't outdated, but it's still having problems in all the games you listed (well, except for HL2, I haven't tried that yet obviously). Now if you were given the option of getting a $200+ video card and a mobo/CPU upgrade, or just buying the same games for another platform you already have (albiet worse looking), which would you chose?

Personally, I do prefer playing games on PCs, but I still have lots of fun with console games. Something I'm forced to do right now, since my main PC is currently non-functional and my only options are playing on my consoles, or playing on my "Intel Extreme Graphics" PC, while I wait for my parts to come in.

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Ooo, speaking of Xbox zealots, wheres Edge.
I'm an Xbox zealot just because I don't hate the Xbox? Or perhaps just because I disagree with your opinion on it.

Last edited by Edge; 08-23-04 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 08-23-04, 09:44 AM   #64
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

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Originally Posted by D.K.Tronics
You can have an opinion that the sky is green, and the world is flat. That doesn't mean you are right. Do you see ?
That's a false analogy. The color of the sky and shape of the world are known facts that one cannot debate. You are arguing about the merits of console gaming. It's inherently useless to debate one another's preferences, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

To the best of my knowledge, most people who play video games own both platforms. I own a PS2, Gamecube, and XBox. If you can afford a $2000+ dollar computer system that you're going to use to play video games then I don't see why dropping 150 bucks on a console would be a stretch of the imaginiation. Besides, most PC gamers started off with consoles anyway. We all know there is a large difference in the type of games that are available on each platform. Fighting, sports, platform, and console RPGs are generally a better experience on consoles than on PCs, which offer a superior FPS, RTS, and CRPG experience. It's really a matter of which type of game you prefer to play (I like all of the above, personally).

Consoles take a tremendous burden off the developers - that is, the burden of cross-platform compatibilty. Having to develop for only one machine allows them to create games that really push the limits of the console's hardware, which we have seen many times on all the current generation consoles. Silent Hill 3 on the PS2 is a great example of this, as is of course Halo, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Ninja Gaiden, and Knights of the Old Republic (which was developed for the PC seperately, not ported) on the X-Box. The Gamecube's graphical prowess is hard to qualify since most of its best games don't really utilize the hardware too much, except of course for Metroid Prime, which looks better than any DX8 or lower shooter on the PC (and still controls awesome).

And as someone had already pointed out, the XBox supports FSAA (which the PC version does not) and looks very very nice on a 36" HDTV in 480p. It's a solid piece of hardware.

THX certification is a quantitative measure of criteria for a home theater system to meet. Any decent HT system will meet the THX requirements or surpass them. Hell, my old Logitech Z560s were only 200 bucks and they were THX certified.

I switch back and forth from my PC and my console games, because both offer a different gaming experience. Sometimes I like the fact that I have no control over the resolution or control mappings on a console, because it makes it easier to be immersed in the game world. Sometimes I like computer games better, especially for the vastly superior multiplayer (Xbox Live isn't nearly as good as online PC gaming). But in the end, this argument is 100% subjective, thus completely pointless.
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Old 08-23-04, 11:12 AM   #65
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

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And as someone had already pointed out, the XBox supports FSAA (which the PC version does not) and looks very very nice on a 36" HDTV in 480p. It's a solid piece of hardware
It sure does support FSAA, albeit via a work around. And so does a PC connected to a HDTV in 1080p, or 480p, etc..look pretty good.

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To enable FSAA, run a "halo.exe -timedemo" shortcut, you will get a timedemo.txt in your Halo install directory. Open this and you'll see a line like this: "2100MHz, 1024MB, 128M ATI Radeon 9700 PRO (DeviceID=0x4e44) Driver=6.14.10.6378 Shader=1.4"

Find your DeviceID, in this case 0x4e44, and look for your specific device number in your config.txt in the Halo install directory. Under your DeviceID, add the following lines:

DisableRenderTargets
Break

It should look like this:

0x4e44 = "Radeon 9700 PRO"
DisableRenderTargets
Break
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Old 08-23-04, 11:51 AM   #66
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

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Originally Posted by D.K.Tronics
It sure does support FSAA, albeit via a work around. And so does a PC connected to a HDTV in 1080p, or 480p, etc..look pretty good.
That isn't "support". FSAA should have been supported out of the box, in the video options menu. Though I've never tried it myself, I've heard from others that that trick pretty much ruins the already horrible framerate the Halo PC port provides. Keep in mind it is a port, and a terrible one at that. The only reason I brought it up is to point out that a console can offer a comparable visual experience to a PC (and XBox Halo is a good example of this), not to compare the PC version of Halo to the console version. There really is no comparison, the game is flat out better on the X-Box, though the fault mostly lies in the god-awful port rather than the platform. Keep in mind as well that Halo looked a LOT better than anything on the PC when it was released. When comparing gaming technology, the timeframe must be kept in context or it's just silly. You might as well say, "Super Mario Brothers 3 sucks because Doom 3 has better graphics".

It seems you've chosen to ignore the entire subject of my post and nit-pick at a little statement I threw in for support. I'm not here to argue for or against console gaming. My point is that each platform offers an excellent gaming experience depending on what you like to play.
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Old 08-23-04, 12:30 PM   #67
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

Doesn't using the DisableRenderTargets/Break command turn off some of the shader effects though? I thought the reason AA is disabled is because it interferes with certain shaders, and using the disablerendertargets command simply turns off those shaders. I could be wrong though. Oh, and saying "it does support it, just with a work around" is kinda contradictory . Kinda like the way DX:IW *supports* surround sound, all you have to do is copy a dll and make a change the the ini file!

How do you output to HDTV modes from a PC though? I never found a cheap way to do it, unless there's some cable or something I haven't heard of. That's one of the reasons I like consoles (well, MOST consoles): most of the times it's quite easy and cheap to get it hooked up to whatever entertainment center you have set up. It's increadibly annoying that a $150 console has the same audio connectors as the $200 version of my sound card does...(unless someone knows how to output a 5.1 surround sound stream though an optic audio cable on an Audigy 2 non-platinum?)
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Old 08-23-04, 12:40 PM   #68
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

FTR, 480p is not an HD mode.
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Old 08-23-04, 12:47 PM   #69
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

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Originally Posted by Jocomp10
Doom3 might be interesting in coop mode.


AA dosn't work in halo pc
Yes it does. You have to tweak a .cfg setting. I played through the game in 800x600 in 4X AA on my 9700. Ill post a screenshot if you don't believe me.
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Old 08-23-04, 12:52 PM   #70
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Default Re: X-box owners screwed by Id!

I don't believe you. Post a screenshot.

Just kidding, I don't care.
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Old 08-23-04, 01:11 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by steeda
Low res jaggy? Have you ever seen 1080i which a lot of Xbox games are starting to support? Halo Xbox blew away Halo PC, even with "only" 480p.
A lot? Very few games support 1080i and to get acceptable frame-rates most new games will not.

1080i does look high-res, but it just reduces the appearance of jaggies and replaces them with an equally annoying artifact - interlacing. PCs did away with interlaced displays around the time of the 386SX. Its about time TVs got with the times. 1024 progressive (as is a PC monitor in 1280x1024) looks much better than 1080i. Even 720p looks better than 1080i.

Jaggies are still apparent no matter how high your resolution, unless the resolution is higher than what your screen surface is really capable of displaying in which case its performing a basic ~1.5X super-sampling effect (which happens on a lot of 720p TVs when they show a 1080i picture).

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You also cannot set a PC sound system up properly for DD while using a computer. Are your PC front speakers at least 6 feet apart? Are you at least 10 feet away from the center channel? Are your back surrounds 4 feet behind you at ear level? Are your main surrounds directly to the right and left of your ears, about 8 feet apart?
No, and they don't need to be. The Audigy 2 can be calibrated to adjust the volumes and channel timings according to where your speakers are.

Besides speaker position isn't exactly evidence of one platform being better than another. If I wanted to have wires all over my walls to space out the speakers like that I could. If I wanted to run it through a 2000 dollar DD system I could. If I wanted to run my PC on a large TV I could. I could even hook it up a projector and make my entire wall a monitor, but I won't because nothing beats the resolution of a traditional PC monitor.

You can't argue that your X-box has better graphics and sound than your PC, because your x-box is on a 50 inch TV with a movie theatre grade sound system and your PC is on a 15 inch CRT with a 60 dollar set of Walmart speakers.

Regardless, the x-box only has 64 meg of ram. You can only fit so many texture and sound samples in that. You can run a game in 2048x1600 with 8X AA and AF, but with low res textures it still looks like ass, and with the exact same 22hz mono gunshot sample played over and over again it still sounds repetative.

I like my x-box because it has some good games. I loved Ninja Gaiden, Riddick, Panzer Dragoon etc. but its simply not technically better than today's PC.
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Old 08-23-04, 01:11 PM   #72
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Actually Steeda it is. Just because some of the more "enthusiast* brands such as Loewe, Bosch and Bang and Olufsen decided to take it onboard PRIOR to HDTV being defined in the 1080i sense it is a ratified High Definition mode. For the record 480p, 720p 1080i and some other modes are all classed as HDTV.

and Edge, I totally agree. This is where most PC zealots tend to fall flat on thier faces when "discussing" (read : denegrating) consoles as compared to PCs:-

"Yet you have room for a poxy 733 mhz celeron based, 3 year old Geforce 3 DX8 based, 64Mb unified memory based system ?"

Like that. Well DK. does your PC do only one thing at a time or do you have a whole host of "Services" active managing IP traffic, disk access, antivirus, firewall etc etc? The reason the XBOX performs so well with it's "poxy" 733mhz processor is that it's got a damn small overhead when compared to the PC. Oh yeah and it's OS in ROM. Same kernal as XP btw - just IN ROM. Nice fast ROM's too so only a small portion needs shadowing (which is how most "mods" work - by patching this shadowed portion).

PC's are by design more open. They also have a much higher overhead to get the same things done as the XBOX. What I think is ultimately silly about comparisons like yours is that I can show you a number of real world (HDTV output in progressive mode with 3:2 pulldown AND Hardware Zooming in XBOX Media Centre vs MediaPlayer or even VideoLanClient for that matter) tests where the XBOX trounces a PC. Yes trounces, even with it's "poxy" 733Mhz and 64MB of unified memory.

It's horses for courses. The XBOX was designed to be a mediaplayer (well DVD player at first) and console so it's going to be better at both of those than an equally and ,more often, better spec'd PC. It is. Just deal with that.

Lastly DK, THX is set of standards. Nothing more and, quite often, a lot less (as its largely just a sticker to sell goods as *Approved* by Skywalker sound - marketing guff for the uneducated). The whole Dolby EX - 7 channel argument has quickly been forgotten in the wake of more universal (read : more cheaply licensed) standards such as DTS (which is configurable right up 24 speakers - ask LEXICON they designed it - Movie Theatres use it). THX means precisely dick to *real* audio engineers. I make music. I also worked for one of Australia's leading distriubutors of Aphex pro. audio studio gear. My boss is a true Audiophile. He has a pair of Tannoy Westminsters. Look them up. The only other person who has the same pair (from the same run) is the THE QUEEN. The rest of his speakers are Tannoy studio monitors. His decoder is a LEXICON studio quality decoder. Then we get too his AMPS. Yes he has one (including separate AMP and PRE-AMP), for each speaker pair. Oh and he has 24 speakers in total, including an $8000 subwoofer which is only dwarfed by one of the Westminsters. He laughs at THX. Any serious Audiophile does.

THX sounded good when 5.1 was being taken up. Hell it allowed Lucas too delay the Indy and Starwars box sets almost a decade. He whet the fans appetite promising THX approved Dolby Digital EX 7 Channel sound. Whoo--frickedy--hoo... It means nothing.. Just your classic marketing guff. Happens all the time.

Instead of poo-pooing the XBOX, why not just give in and get one? As I said most people who responded to this thread own both an XBOX and a PC. Obviously that's the case, as I doubt that many would bother browsing from thier TV's (which you can do in 1080i on XBOX now btw).

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