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Old 08-21-04, 10:37 PM   #13
ragejg
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

I stared at that post for about an hour, Ed, tryin to think of what to do... You summed it up nicely.

I do however think it's reasonable to assume that once it's all said and done, ATI cards will have a ~10% performance advantage @ higher rez with AA and AF on...
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Old 08-22-04, 07:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Saturnotaku, if you took the time to actually read the postings at Driver Heaven you would know that they later did test 6800U using the 65.62 betas:

http://www.driverheaven.net/showthre...2&page=4&pp=15

Quote: "Probably worth noting that all optimisations were on for the 65.62"

65.62 did improve 6800U quite a bit, but 6800U was getting about 52 FPS in 1600x1200 4X/8X (MAX settings) VST, while X800XT PE achieved about 72 FPS - that is a nearly 40% lead by X800XT PE. We do not know how much impact these VST scores will have on performance in the final version of HL2, but lacking better tests than the VST, I do find a 40% performance difference disturbing. So clearly 65.62 in no way closed the gap between 6800U and X800XT PE using MAX settings in the VST, as you wrongly are claiming. Furthermore this is not a discussion about getting the 6800U or X800XT PE to look best (who wins or not is not the primary issue), it is only a matter of showing all the relevant data.
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Old 08-22-04, 08:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuneSR
So clearly HalcYon could seem quite biased by writing "Now I don't want to sound like an NVIDIA apologist here, but the debate raging for 70 fps vs. 60 fps at 16x12 4X/8X is hardly worth amount of time we are are wasting on it". The differences seen at the sites mentioned above far exceeds "70 fps vs. 60 fps" and I am quite surprised that NVNews has not mentioned the VST reviews on VR-Zone, FiringSquad and Driver Heaven. 6800U is doing much worse in these test compared to X800XT PE than in the tests from Gamers Depot and Tech Report and in my opinion it is only fair that the readers of NVNEWS get the whole story, unless NVNEWS wishes to conceal some potentially important aspects regarding 6800U vs. X800XT PE in Half-Life 2 VST.
[sarcasm] Do you sit at your computer with a tinfoil hat on so the spy satellites can't read your mind? I didn't link Driver Heaven, it's got to be a conspiracy against ATI... [/sarcasm]

Actually, I did post a link to VR-Zone's benchmarks. I also made reference to the Driver Heaven "benchmarks" in a later post with out a link or mentioning them by name. As for the Squab, I don't like them, so I don't link them.

But you probably want more on why I did not want to link to Driver heaven's scores? First, their methodology came into question immediately when they tried to compare 6x AA performance on ATI to 8xS performance on NVIDIA. Smacks of someone stacking the deck for shock value in a graph with an asterisk. There are people replying in DH's forum with lesser systems running the exact same benchmark settings that are getting higher scores. Saturn already mentioned that DH's scores have been beaten to death in the nV Forums already. Most of all, VR-Zone and Squab's benchmarks contradict the performance gap which you so proudly tried to enlighten us poor NVIDIOTs about, unless you can make "28 to 44 %" out of 74.1 vs. 64.5.

Now to the real reason for me to reply to your post. You missed the point and made my point at the same time. The CS Source benchmark is a purely synthetic benchmark that has become the primary hardware world debate because Driver heaven has the gall to post results SO skewed one way that everyone is ignoring EVERY other site's results, you included evidently. It has little to do with how actual gameplay will be when HL2 is released because 1) no one knows if Valve is done tweaking the engine (SM3.0 patch?) and 2) there will likely be driver updates for HL2 from both ATI and NVIDIA (65.xx, 4.9 Cats).

The purpose of the stress test, IMHO, is to make sure that the engine functions properly on different flavors of hardware and all of the features on the rendering engine do as they should to produce the desired atmosphere. That's it. The usual suspects in the the usual venues have turned it into page after page of your-card-sux. Let it go. And that is directed to both the fanATItics and NVIDIOTs...

Now I'm pissed at myself, because I let you turn me into a hypocrite. Then again, the cat woke me up early and I couldn't fall back asleep, so at least I had nothing better to do...

You feel like discussing Doom3 performance? Kidding. Just a joke...
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Old 08-22-04, 08:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuneSR
...and I am quite surprised that NVNews has not mentioned the VST reviews on VR-Zone, FiringSquad and Driver Heaven.
Had they sent news of their articles to news@nvnews.net, we probably would have posted them. VR-Zone usually sends us news, but we let their second article on the subject slip through the cracks. It's been hectic around here during the past week. I've been troubleshooting performance issues with vBulletin and mySQL and Brian is filling in for our regular news poster who's taken time off to take care of personal business.
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Old 08-22-04, 08:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Yup...but now I am back! Sorted all my moving, broadband, computer problems. Things will start moing on the front page now..as far as roundups are concerened.

@rune-sr
Vr-zone's CS test was linked by BrianG...if u look back in the archives.
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Old 08-22-04, 08:25 AM   #18
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianG
Then again, the cat woke me up early and I couldn't fall back asleep, so at least I had nothing better to do...
LOL. I can relate. We have two new kittens that play tag in the middle of the night. I'll post some pics in the Open Forum later on today.
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Old 08-22-04, 08:25 AM   #19
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuneSR
Furthermore this is not a discussion about getting the 6800U or X800XT PE to look best (who wins or not is not the primary issue), it is only a matter of showing all the relevant data.
And a lot of people who have participated in this thread have come to the conclusion that DH's benchmarks are skewed. DH is ATI biased, they might try a thinly veiled attempt at objectivity but most of us here (and elsewhere) see right through it.

Further, it's been plainly obvious to people following this situation that ATI was going to be better in Half-Life 2. Not a single person has denied this, but we are well within our right to question one site who numbers are quite a bit different than other places who have run similar tests.

Lastly, there is more than one person who is going to wait for the final game to be released. In addition, we also have come to the conclusion that the 6800 still does very well - even 50 fps at 1600x1200, 4x AA/8x AF is nothing to sneeze.

Again, read through the thread and you'll see people have drawn their own conclusions.
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Old 08-22-04, 08:27 AM   #20
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Hmmm, seems I missed the link to the updated VST benchmarks at VR-Zone.

I'll link them right now. I did link the initial round of benchmarks at VR-Zone based on gameplay which Muya referred to.
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Old 08-22-04, 08:31 AM   #21
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

OK my bad...I thought BrianG had already linked the vr-zone article
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Old 08-22-04, 08:33 AM   #22
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

AA & AF are big issues because they are the first thing's turned off when a new (performance taxing) game comes out. Been dealing with that for a while, and will again. The next game to come out that really taxes our performance will again result in AA & AF being turned off first. Why, because that's just how important they really are. To me, a decent amount of default filtering and no AA at 1280x1024/960 are just fine.
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Old 08-22-04, 08:51 AM   #23
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodelf
AA & AF are big issues because they are the first thing's turned off when a new (performance taxing) game comes out. Been dealing with that for a while, and will again. The next game to come out that really taxes our performance will again result in AA & AF being turned off first. Why, because that's just how important they really are. To me, a decent amount of default filtering and no AA at 1280x1024/960 are just fine.
Thanks for getting back on topic.

I honestly believe that AA and AF are the new 32-bit color. They are taken for granted and are part of the gaming experience now. I see most game engines and game designers accounting for performance with AA and AF enabled. Hence, the games now control settings like AA and AF. To coin the ad slogan, "The way it's meant to be played."

That said, Doom3 does look great with out AA, but I think that is mainly due to the darkness of the environment.
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Old 08-22-04, 09:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: Saturday Commentary

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianG
That said, Doom3 does look great with out AA, but I think that is mainly due to the darkness of the environment.
I mean, what good is AA if you can't see it in the first place. Hehe.
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