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Old 08-24-04, 04:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Ditto, ultimate17!
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Old 08-24-04, 04:09 PM   #26
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimate17
I will say though, as great as the ff series used to be....I havent played a good one since 7....square just aint what it used to be . =/
Well, I sure agree with this. Square's been dragging its feet for a long time now. I was really excited about FF12 until I heard it's just a single player FF11. Now I'm not so sure...maybe they can pull it off, but frankly, I'm not interested in the idea. But who knows, maybe it'll be good...

I guess I liked Skies of Arcadia because it was a real breath of fresh air getting away from the "angsty/dark" protaganist. Not to mention, the setting and story were very original and fun. I can understand that you didn't like it but calling it overrated is a little extreme, it's an awesome game in a lot of ways. Calling Final Fantasy VII, a game that's been hailed as "best video game ever" more times than I can recall, overrated is a little more on the level. Keep in mind - I like FF7. I just played through it again. But it just isn't as good as people let on. Sometimes hype from a game's release can really enhance the experience and nostalgic affect on the memory. Hell, as far as the overall experience goes, FF2 gets my vote for best RPG ever. I still remember how shocked I was when you find out that Golbeze is Cecil's brother. Ahh, that was good stuff.

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Originally Posted by jbirney
Did they set the bar so high from the first one that they can not make it? Only time will tell....
Good question, they probably did.
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Old 08-24-04, 04:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

I wish there would be another Ultima or Ultima Underworld game. Origin made some awesome games until Richard Garriott decided he wanted some quick cash for a castle and sold his company to EA.
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Old 08-24-04, 04:34 PM   #28
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaman09
Well, I sure agree with this. Square's been dragging its feet for a long time now. I was really excited about FF12 until I heard it's just a single player FF11. Now I'm not so sure...maybe they can pull it off, but frankly, I'm not interested in the idea. But who knows, maybe it'll be good...

I guess I liked Skies of Arcadia because it was a real breath of fresh air getting away from the "angsty/dark" protaganist. Not to mention, the setting and story were very original and fun. I can understand that you didn't like it but calling it overrated is a little extreme, it's an awesome game in a lot of ways. Calling Final Fantasy VII, a game that's been hailed as "best video game ever" more times than I can recall, overrated is a little more on the level. Keep in mind - I like FF7. I just played through it again. But it just isn't as good as people let on. Sometimes hype from a game's release can really enhance the experience and nostalgic affect on the memory. Hell, as far as the overall experience goes, FF2 gets my vote for best RPG ever. I still remember how shocked I was when you find out that Golbeze is Cecil's brother. Ahh, that was good stuff.



Good question, they probably did.

That was quite a shock in FF2....and one of my fav parts was going to the moon. Skies of Arcadia is a decent game, dont get me wrong. I just didnt see why it was praised as much as it was, but i'll take back my most overrated game ever comment...there's certaintly far worse games that are praised...*cough* doom 3 * cough*....I think the worst rpg I ever played was Jade Cocoon for psone...oh that was horrible...
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Old 08-24-04, 04:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

while its a matter of opinion, i must repeat and say ff7 is the best.
try to think about the first time you played it.
and what the the hell? ff12 is ff11 single player? where did u read it???
and still waiting for advent children.... mmmmmmmmm...... tifa.................
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Old 08-24-04, 05:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaman09
You know, there's something that's been bothering me throughout this whole ridiculous ordeal with Valve and Half-Life 2. People have been berating id for making Doom 3 the way they wanted to, and exhibiting extraordinary amounts of understanding and patience with Valve, even though they've fed the public and press little more than lies for the past year. Go on any pre-order website and see the droves of morons posting 5-star reviews on a game they haven't ever played, hailing it as the next king of FPSs and the killer of Doom 3. Who's to say if Half-Life 2 is any good? No one knows!

Now, to the gaming public, Valve is regarded as little less than gods. Hell, some people think more highly of them than id software. Why is this? It's a mystery to me. Let's review the two companies' track records, shall we?

The items listed below are known facts that are not up for debate.

id software games:
-Commander Keen series
-Wolfenstein series
-Doom series
-Quake series

id software engine licensed games:
-Heretic series
-Hexen series
-Jedi Outcast
-Jedi Academy
-Medal of Honor Allied Assault + Expansions
-Call of Duty
-Star Trek: Elite Force series
-Soldier of Fortune series
-Half Life + expansions (ironic, isn't it?)
-droves of other games (doom, quake, quake2, and quake 3 engine) I haven't thought of yet

id software landmarks:
-creators of the FPS genre and arguably the pioneers of 3D gaming
-most successful game developers ever
-most experienced 3D gaming engine designers
-creators of the most frequently licensed 3D engines

Now, for Valve:

Valve Software games:
-Half-Life + expansion packs

Valve Software engine licensed games:
-Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines (not yet released)

Valve Software landmarks:
-Half-Life considered by many to be the best FPS ever.

Valve isn't a bad company, not by a long-shot. However, it pales in comparison to id software, and frankly, many other game developers as well. I don't understand why people think the Source engine is so advanced - it's just a spiffed-up Quake engine (yes I know it's not actually the Quake engine, but the method of processing the architecture is the same) with pixel shaders. That's nowhere near as advanced as Doom 3's 100% per-pixel lighting and shadowing engine. id took the next step in 3D engine technology, while Valve is using old technology and slapping on an extra coat of polish. This will make for very nice looking outdoor areas, and probably very good framerates as well, it does not make the engine revolutionary in the same sense as the Doom 3 engine. The very most we can hope for Half-Life 2 is that it will be a fun game, but I it isn't capable of evolving the way the Doom 3 engine can. The reason for this is simple - id software and John Carmack are FAR more experienced and talented 3D engine programmers than Valve and Gabe Newell. Source is their first proprietary engine. id's been making engines for over a decade.

Is it because Half-Life was such an awesome game? I can see how people could get blind-sided by this. However, it was JUST ONE GAME. That's all! Valve has never made any other game! Why all the expectations? Why all the hype? Other than Half-Life, Valve has no track record! People just eat up their PR BS and sit there stewing in anticipation, but plenty of developers have released terrible sequels to great games, especially in the translation to more advanced technology. Now, maybe Half-Life 2 will be game of the year, maybe it'll put Doom 3 to shame, but its technology is already dated. There's nowhere for it to grow but in a straight line.

Keep in mind that I was using id as a basis of comparison. Feel free to replace "id" with "Epic" and the Unreal engines, there's plenty to talk about there too.
Well said, I agree
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Old 08-24-04, 05:23 PM   #31
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by H3avyM3tal
do not put a man like Stanley Kubrick in the same step as gabe. thats it for that issue.
LOL.. Lemme have a guess. You're one of those guys who think that people actually listen to what you say right? Man are you deluded! ROFL

Thanks for putting "that issue" to bed for me though. I was sooo unsure before you turned up.

Here's an idea. Go die your HEAD. And Bang It. YO METAHHHHHLLLL!

...loser :P
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Old 08-24-04, 05:33 PM   #32
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mezkal
LOL.. Lemme have a guess. You're one of those guys who think that people actually listen to what you say right? Man are you deluded! ROFL

Thanks for putting "that issue" to bed for me though. I was sooo unsure before you turned up.

Here's an idea. Go die your HEAD. And Bang It. YO METAHHHHHLLLL!

...loser :P
Jesus, you sure get emotional on these message boards, don't you?! The poor guy just suggested that Stanley Kubrick was FAR more talented in his respective field than Gabe Newell (an opinion I happen to agree with). There's no need to make personal attacks on him! After all...

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What's the point of opening a discussion if you're not actually willing to discuss?
You said it best yourself!
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Old 08-24-04, 05:59 PM   #33
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

game of the year multiple years in a row.

It was the first fps to make a player really feel like they did not control the enviornments around them. The only game single player wise that even knocked the wind out of Half-Life's sails was thief.

They were the first developer to not only work directly with mod authors but offer them chances if they worked hard and garnered the mass's behidn them a chance at getting their projects retail. To this day they still do the same thing. They will modify and change their engine and add things on JUST FOR mod authors. While Half-Life 2 is designed to be a great single player experiance, a major portion of that time has been spent on making an engine JUST for modders again.

You could go on and on explaining what makes Valve gods, its not the same as id. Surely id are gods of equal proportions just a different type of god. But id has always answered those whpm criticize them the most in their following titles. No, noone will ever outdo id in terms of merits in the industry. But noone can ever take away the things that valve has done to change the face of fps gaming.

I do not think one is a better company that delivers better games than the other. I just think each is better in their own philosophy.

Quote:
A lot of the team that worked on HL probably aren't even there anymore.
incorrect a vast majority of the team is still there.

Quote:
If Half-Life was delayed even a year or so, we'd be playing Counter-Strike on the Unreal or Quake 2 engine.
It was delayed for a year or so =P
And previous to counter-strike it was called action quake, if u were aroudn you would know that some of the original cs team worked with ming on action quake, and got in a dissagreement about which game was better for the next version of action. So they went to half life and made 'counter-strike'.

Quote:
This, however, is not Valve's doing, but the mod makers', and is large a function of the time the game was released.
Eh, it was abit of boith for the top 5 mods valve has modified alot of their game code to support those mods directlky for them. For many of those mods valve has offered at times their talent to directly help them move their mods forward. Valve offers them the chance to go retail, unlike any other developer. Only epic has done this ONCE in hopes of creating a mod that would grow to the scope of CS. They failed misreably

Last edited by killahsin; 08-24-04 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 08-24-04, 06:13 PM   #34
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Once again, no one is debating the merits of Half-Life. We are discussing Valve's bloated popularity. One great game does not necessarily equal a great game developer. Take Stone Temple Pilots for example. Core and Purple rocked, but Shangiladida (or whatever)? And that was the end of STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killashin
It was delayed for a year or so =P
And previous to counter-strike it was called action quake, if u were aroudn you would know that some of the original cs team worked with ming on action quake, and got in a dissagreement about which game was better for the next version of action. So they went to half life and made 'counter-strike'
No, I DO know that. I used to play Action Quake, and Action Half-Life as well. That's how I heard about Counter-Strike actually. However, if Half-Life was delayed a year FROM WHEN IT WAS RELEASED (is that better?), it's very well possible that we'd be playing CS on a different game engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killashin
Eh, it was abit of boith for the top 5 mods valve has modified alot of their game code to support those mods directlky for them. For many of those mods valve has offered at times their talent to directly help them move their mods forward. Valve offers them the chance to go retail, unlike any other developer. Only epic has done this ONCE in hopes of creating a mod that would grow to the scope of CS. They failed misreably
While this is true, it is not relevant. That does not make Valve the best game developer or garauntee Half-Life 2's status as the best game of all time. If CS was developed for Quake 2 then maybe id software would be the ones to put it to retail. The mod made it on its own merits, not because of Half-Life.
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Old 08-24-04, 06:15 PM   #35
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaman09
No, I DO know that. I used to play Action Quake, and Action Half-Life as well. That's how I heard about Counter-Strike actually. However, if Half-Life was delayed a year FROM WHEN IT WAS RELEASED (is that better?), it's very well possible that we'd be playing CS on a different game engine.
No actually you wouldnt. You would just be playing action quake for longer. CS was made cs by a mere disagreement about where to take action engine wise. Had hl been delayed longer, c/g would still most likely be working on action quake.

Furthermore u have missed the whole poitn of my post. It isn't so much about the one game they created but about the community they directly supported. They could have sat there spitting out **** titles bi-yearly like most developers. Instead they spent time and money doing what? Directly supporting their mod community to grow their multiplayer community to as large as it is. Remeber CS stopped being public at beta 5
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Old 08-24-04, 06:21 PM   #36
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Default Re: How did Valve get put on its pedastal anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by killashin
CS was made cs by a mere disagreement about where to take action engine wise.
Right, not saying it wasn't...

Quote:
Originally Posted by killashin
Had hl been delayed longer, c/g would still most likely be working on action quake.
Maybe, maybe not. Either way it's all speculative, and you're completely missing my point. I was just saying that CS could have been developed for another game engine and been just as good. Valve had nothing to do with CS's development until they realized they could exploit it to sell more copies of Half-Life (which they did) by sponsoring it and letting it go retail. Not that this was a bad thing, I used to be a huge CS junkie, but it doesn't make Valve a good developer.

*edit* Since we're editing our posts now...

"CS stopped being public at beta 5" - I don't understand what you mean by this. I remember CS beta 7. CS 1.0 was the first retail version, and it was still a free download and still under development by the same people.
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