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Old 09-25-04, 01:31 AM   #37
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

Quote:
Originally Posted by anzak
DX7 Radeon VE in the PS2


huh?
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Old 09-25-04, 01:38 AM   #38
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

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Originally Posted by ragejg


huh?
The Radeon VE was the original name for the Radeon 7000. It lacks the hardware T&L that it's big brother the Radeon 7500 uses.
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Old 09-25-04, 01:38 AM   #39
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

Quote:
Originally Posted by anzak
What also upsets me is when someone tries to argue the fact that the XBOX is more powerful than the PS2. First off the processor on the Xbox is 733mhz (= P3) which is more than twice as powerful as the ps2's 266mhz (emotion engine = P2). Second you have a DX8 Geforce 3 in the xbox vs. the DX7 Radeon VE in the PS2. The Xbox also has more memory 64mb vs. 32mb. The xbox has so much more potential than the PS2 due to it's programmable shaders.
First off I think you messed up on your first sentance. And secondly they aren't really comparable: you can't simply say the PS2's CPU is equivalent to a 433 P2 because it's running at 128 bits and has a far different arcitecture, nor is the GPU "equivalent" to a DX7 Radeon VE. The PS2's GPU doesn't even support hardware bumpmapping (something that's been standard in video cards since the Geforce 1), however it's able to pull off some VERY impressive effects because it's so configurable (ever seen the water in Hotshots Golf or the shadows in Silent Hill 3? Those effects are comparable to some of the best looking effects in PC games, despite the fact that PC hardware was designed specifically for those effects). The PS2's hardware is notorious for being poorly designed, but for as much as I don't like it even I'm impressed by some of the things they've done with it. The programmers who did Gran Tourismo 4 and Metal Gear Solid 3 must be gods, I'd LOVE to see what they could do with high-end PC hardware.

Oh, and didn't they say that the GPU in the next generation Xbox will be roughly equivalent to a next generation Radeon card (i.e. after the x800 series)? If so I highly doubt the hardware you have in your computer could really match those consoles
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Old 09-25-04, 01:49 AM   #40
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

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Originally Posted by Edge
First off I think you messed up on your first sentance. And secondly they aren't really comparable: you can't simply say the PS2's CPU is equivalent to a 433 P2 because it's running at 128 bits and has a far different arcitecture, nor is the GPU "equivalent" to a DX7 Radeon VE. The PS2's GPU doesn't even support hardware bumpmapping (something that's been standard in video cards since the Geforce 1), however it's able to pull off some VERY impressive effects because it's so configurable (ever seen the water in Hotshots Golf or the shadows in Silent Hill 3? Those effects are comparable to some of the best looking effects in PC games, despite the fact that PC hardware was designed specifically for those effects). The PS2's hardware is notorious for being poorly designed, but for as much as I don't like it even I'm impressed by some of the things they've done with it. The programmers who did Gran Tourismo 4 and Metal Gear Solid 3 must be gods, I'd LOVE to see what they could do with high-end PC hardware.

Oh, and didn't they say that the GPU in the next generation Xbox will be roughly equivalent to a next generation Radeon card (i.e. after the x800 series)? If so I highly doubt the hardware you have in your computer could really match those consoles
After rereading the first sentence, your right. From what I have read, ATI used the Radeon VE in the PS2. I guess that im wrong. Your right about console developers getting the most out of limited hardware too. It's amazing what console developers can do with 32 and 64mb of memory when Crytek can't make farcry run smooth on 512. I was under the impression that the Xbox2 would be running the R420 chip?
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Old 09-25-04, 01:50 AM   #41
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

I agree totally with everything Edge has said. He's summed up the argument for me, but as a corollary to his mention of the R500 in the Xbox2 (and I said this in that... other thread as well), the Xbox 2 is *also* supposedly going to ship with a custom designed IBM Tri-core PowerPC CPU. That's going to be very, very, quick.

My only concern regarding the Xbox 2, is if it's going to be shipping with a mega CPU and a mega GPU, won't it be very expensive to produce relative to past consoles? Surely all of this is going to come with a definite cash price, and it doesn't seem like it'll be low. Still, what do I know? I've never even owned a console (which is not to say that they're bad - I've just never had the money when I've wanted one, and whenever I do have the money, I find I want something else more. I'd still love a Gamecube, no matter how much people don't seem to like them.)

Edit: Re Anzac: No, it's going to be running an R500, a derivative of the R520 - the next, next gen Radeon.
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Old 09-25-04, 01:54 AM   #42
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

Put it this way, how much faster is the Xbox over a PC that cost the same, $150-$200? Anyone can say that a PC is faster, but you have to spend over a grand to get anything decent. Plenty of Xbox games look great too since it's on a fixed platform, like that Chronicles of Riddick everyone likes. Heck, look at Burnout 3, itís amazing even on a PS2.

Also, I feel sorry for these people that are so misinformed. Look how the PC gaming world works in stores. Even the cheap $50 cards have big fancy names with ultra fast gaming written all over it, especially with all the graphic art on the box, like putting flames on a car to make it go faster. So someone that doesn't know much will think $50-$100 gaming cards will be fine, but then fine it's crap compared to what consoles can do.

Then you have minimum requirements on game boxes that are just to get the game to start rather than to play good. Unless they go online to check card reviews and forums on PC gaming, these people will get now from info at stores, especially since most employees know nothing too.

My laptop with a 9600 mobile can play Halo at 640*480 on my TV better than an Xbox can. But for an xbox, low resolution is fine since it looks ok on a TV. But once you get to a PC, you have to have even more power so you can run at a decent resolution so it doesn't look like crap on a CRT or LCD.
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Old 09-25-04, 01:58 AM   #43
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

When the is the Xbox2 set to be released? All I know is that M$ cannot package a $400 video card into a $300 console. What about cooling? These components will also be harder to keep cool and console gamers are very sensitive to noise.
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Old 09-25-04, 02:08 AM   #44
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothyb
So someone that doesn't know much will think $50-$100 gaming cards will be fine, but then fine it's crap compared to what consoles can do.
But thats due to software issues not hardware ones. Console game developers are very VERY good at working with what hardware they are limited to. If PC game developers would take the same time and effort into making there game run on lower end systems we would not have this problem. For example my friend installed Far Cry on his Dell computer which includes a Geforce 5200nu. He had to put everything on low/off and run it at 800/600! This totally ruins the experience. Now I know that the 5200 is a very weak GPU but it is still able to run short 1.1 shaders easily. If Crytek would have implemented these shorter shaders he would be able to play it with pixelshaded water.
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Old 09-25-04, 02:37 AM   #45
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

Quote:
Originally Posted by anzak
From what I have read, ATI used the Radeon VE in the PS2. I guess that im wrong.
Yeah, the GPU (well, actually it's not a GPU in the traditional sense) in the PS2 is custom designed by Sony. It's nothing like any regular graphics card on the market, it's quite customisable but VERY hard to program for. In the PS2 the GPU and CPU are really the same thing, which is in a way kinda good because then there aren't seperate bottlenecks in the console, however since it isn't specifically designed for any particular feature and relies on essentially the same processor to handle everything from AI to surfacing effects, it can get bogged down pretty easilly in a game scenario, which is by far it's biggest fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anzak
When the is the Xbox2 set to be released? All I know is that M$ cannot package a $400 video card into a $300 console. What about cooling? These components will also be harder to keep cool and console gamers are very sensitive to noise.
Actually, that's pretty much what they did with the Xbox 1 (not to mention a harddrive, mobo/CPU, and ram). When the Xbox 1 was released, the Geforce 3 (the graphics card that the Xbox's was based on) was still $300, and the variant in the Xbox had a GPU clocked faster than a ti500 and with an extra vertex shader like the GF4 has. It's definatly not unreasonable to think that their next console will have a graphics processor that's equal or better to what's availible on the PC market, but at a much lower price (remember, MS buys things at wholesale price whereas consumer graphics cards are sold with a large markup). MS was willing to take the $100 loss on every Xbox they sell because they knew they would be able to make it up in software sales and lisencing, and it's not unreasonable to think that they'll do the same with the Xbox 2. I remember when the Xbox was first released, someone made a thead here that said something like "Why does a $300 console have a video card better than my $300 Geforce 3?"

As far as cooling and noise go, MS has learned a lot from the Xbox. The early Xboxes had a seperate GPU fan, and the DVD drives were quite noisy. Later on they were able to remove the GPU fan entirely and replace it with a large-sized heatsync (which greatly cut down on noise), and the DVD drives were replaces with quieter, more reliable ones. Hell, they even removed the metal outer frame from the Xbox interior, which reduced the weight of the console by several pounds (it wasn't really needed, since any blow that's powerful enough to crack the plastic casing would likely break the internal components from vibration alone). This time MS is focusing on efficiency, I think Gamecube and even the PStwo is a very good example of an efficient console. Amazing that something that's 1/6th the size of a PC tower and makes practically no noise is able to put out graphics like Rogue Leader and Resident Evil 4. It's not how big it is, but how you use it that counts

Oh my, I really do like to talk about graphics cards, don't I? Well, At least on this board I don't feel like I'm alone
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Old 09-25-04, 04:27 AM   #46
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

There are lots of console games that look and play great. Riddick and Soul Caliber(GC) just to name a couple. It also helps to have a Hi-Def tv with progressive scan enabled, which ends up costing as much or more than a high end gaming rig.

By the way, Halo looks great on this type of system. Personally though I still prefer the PC version.
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Old 09-25-04, 01:11 PM   #47
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

when doom3 comes out on xbox we shall see how good the console still is - remember its 3 years old , how many of you people could play doom 3 on your pc's from 3 years ago ? (yeah go and blow that dust off your amd 1.3's and see how far you get)

the xbox is a great system , maybe not as fantastic now as it was when it was released but still holds its head up high against many pc games of today.

hopefully the new xbox2 will lead for another 2 years until pc's play catch up and i shall be happily handing over my hard earned to play one
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Old 09-25-04, 04:00 PM   #48
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Default Re: My run-in with a console boy

I dont see PC's playing catch up to Xbox2...the system will have a r500....by the time the system debuts, r520's will be available for PC Gamers...which imo makes PC still more powerful. How? Simple. I can play @ 1024X768 or higher on my PC....your stuck in low res with any console.

My two biggest gripes about consoles are
1.) Lows res gaming
2.) Lack of upgradable hardware

Lets say Xbox 2 IS more powerful...lets say it does take 2 years for PC's to catch up...well...after they do catch up, they end up leaving smoke in the consoles face...because as time go by...PC's continue to upgrade to bigger and better...while Xbox 2 is still pushing its online features =O

Xbox is a decent system, dont get me wrong. Very high-end when it comes to consoles. I just hate low res. I;ve heard rumors that they might incorporate pc monitor connectivity to xbox2...now that would be awesome. Granted your allowed to up resoltuion to more than just 800X600...if an xbox is able to connect to a crt and go to a 1280X960/1024 res...that would be very luring.
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