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Old 09-27-04, 11:28 PM   #13
Subtestube
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

As a matter of interest, have you tried Joint Ops? It's nowhere near as realistic as what you want, but all the weaps do have Iron sights, you can hit people from absurd distances with a Sniper rifle if you're good enough (leading them a little, accounting for bullet dip & all), and the arenas are HUGE. It's still nothing like what you want, but you might enjoy it a little more than the other games currently on offer.
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Old 09-27-04, 11:57 PM   #14
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

One reason for lack of realism is fun factor. Most games are made to please the lowest common denominator, weekend warriors. Just for the sake of seeing how it works, try FlashPoint. SVD can reach out to about 1.2-3k but chances are you'll waste most of your ammo trying to hit anything but a tight squad. LAW/RPG, same thing. Looks awesome in the movies, and in other games, but try hitting T80 from 60-80 meters. Extreme realism will only be in simulators. Look at flight sims, small but dedicated market. Games don't sell well, but there are some extremely realistic sims.

IL2, LOMAC damage model is VERY realistic. Bullet trajectory is calculated all the way through the frame and referenced with blue prints to see if any equipment was damaged internally. Hopefully some day we'll get something like that for FPS sims. Bullet caliber, muzzle velocity distance, windage, etc and finally body damage.

FlashPoint is probably one of the few FPS games that are more sim like than the rest. Hopefully the trend will continue.
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Old 09-28-04, 12:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

Flashpoint and America's Army are both pretty realistic in terms of actual weapon physics, although AA tends to play like slow-motion Counter-Strike. I do recall taking down enemies in Flashpoint with an M16 at something like 400m.
And the whole thing isn't neccesarily that I should be able to hit a guy at a mile, just that I should be able to hit what is between my sights. Getting that guy between the sights is up to me.
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Old 09-28-04, 01:40 AM   #16
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeero1978
rainbow six 3 is very realistic also...
R6 3 is realistic in terms of damage, but guns are uncannilly inaccurate (although far, far more accuate than in Counter-Strike or the like). This is most likely to compensate for the severly brain-damaged AI who can't navigate doors, find cover or just plain run properly. Also the guns don't blowthrough properly. The Barrett Light Fifty should easily pierce through just about every building in that game, but it is stopped by many walls. I know personally that a .50BMG rifle will blow through a solid brick wall, somewhere I have a video on CD of a friend of mine shooting someone through a wall, and you can see the brains literally explode up over the wall from the force, after the round travelled approx. 550m and pierced 6" or 7" of red brick.
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Old 09-28-04, 02:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheimison
I know personally that a .50BMG rifle will blow through a solid brick wall, somewhere I have a video on CD of a friend of mine shooting someone through a wall, and you can see the brains literally explode up over the wall from the force, after the round travelled approx. 550m and pierced 6" or 7" of red brick.
Why do you have video's of your friends killing people?
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Old 09-28-04, 03:20 AM   #18
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

I assume that gamedevs generally try to balance weapons to balance the gameplay in MP, at the expense of realism on the weapons.
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Old 09-28-04, 03:44 AM   #19
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

I could be wrong, but I think the reason weaps aren't perfectly accurate is that it's SO DAMN EASY to aim with a mouse, even at absurd range. Real soldiers wouldn't be close to as accurate as a person with a mouse... unless there were some way to simulate kick... like having the shots scatter a little. Still, I don't know pretty much anything about real guns, so I'll shut up now.
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Old 09-28-04, 03:54 AM   #20
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral
Why do you have video's of your friends killing people?
Army scout-sniper in Iraq.

Also, for reference, check out an actual examples of sniper rifle accuracy:


Quote:
I could be wrong, but I think the reason weaps aren't perfectly accurate is that it's SO DAMN EASY to aim with a mouse, even at absurd range. Real soldiers wouldn't be close to as accurate as a person with a mouse... unless there were some way to simulate kick... like having the shots scatter a little. Still, I don't know pretty much anything about real guns, so I'll shut up now.
Yes, you need reticule wobble from hearbeat and breathing (which is reduced when you are in a shooting crouch, and greatly reduced when benchfiring or prone-shooting. Basically your gun should 'wander' a bit outside of your control, which wouldn't really matter much at close range but would make long range shots difficult. Also wind, bullet drop etc need to be taken into account, especially for snipers.

Just for the record, bipods do NOT make rifles 'more accurate' or easier to shoot. In fact, they make them awkward because the weight shifts forward and the gun wobbles weirdly after you fire. The function of the tripod is mainly the keep the gun out of the mud and so you don't have to support the whole weight for hours at a time.
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Old 09-28-04, 05:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

You sir are captain tactics

Quote:
Captain Tactics: After watching Full Metal Jacket 20 or 30 times, this fine young lad has learned everything there is to know about urban combat. Not only is he a military genius just waiting to be discovered and recruited by the Federal Bureau of Discovering and Recruiting Military Geniuses, but he is benevolent enough to share his foolproof battle plans with the rest of his team, and even inform all the other players whenever their strategies do not meet with his approval. Lucky them!
Signature move: Saying "rush right", charging off by himself into a hail of enemy gunfire, then repeatedly saying "u stupid lusers didnt rush w/me or id be alive. assholes"
Strategy: Take a shot at him with a pump shotgun from all the way across the map. You can easily dispatch him seconds later when he stops playing to type out a 500-word essay on why shotguns should not be used at long range
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Old 09-28-04, 06:10 AM   #22
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampireuk
You sir are captain tactics
I'm more on the order of the guy who argues about the AR-18 muzzle flash.

My main issue is that game makers seem to intentionally refuse to learn about real guns. It's like how Marxists intentionally refuse to learn real economics, any discussion on the matter and anything they do about it is infuriatingly retarded.

And actually, 'across the map' in most games is reasonable shotgun range. Shotguns don't spray out in some ridiculous fashion as depicted in CS or Doom 3.
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Old 09-28-04, 06:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

Who cares if the guns are not realistic, they do it to balance the game.
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Old 09-28-04, 06:30 AM   #24
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Default Re: Long Rant on Problems with Implementing Realism in FPS Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampireuk
Who cares if the guns are not realistic, they do it to balance the game.
Because I want to play a game with realistic guns.
Basically:
I go out and shoot guns. Some mine, mostly other people's. I've fired everything from Mac-10s to sniper rifles. And I enjoy it, and I think "Man, violence is neat without danger". Thus I want a game that simulates the stuff I don't get to do with those guns to human beings.
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