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Old 12-08-03, 02:08 PM   #49
Leoncatz
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Default Good Point! BUT...

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
And considering this card's lackluster performance compared to what's out there now and what will be out in the near future, the Parhelia is essentially caught in the vortex that is ATI and NVIDIA.

If the Parhelia had been released at the time of the Radeon 8500, then Matrox would definitely have had something. But, like a lot of things in this industry, it's another case of too little, too late.
What Matrox has over Nvidia and ATI is this. www.matrox.com

Just have a look there and see for yourself that Matrox is NOT hurting for money to back their business ventures. Like so many companies before, Nvidia and ATI maybe gone by the Chapter 11 wayside while Matrox keeps on chugging along.

Matrox is an extremely well established High-End Video Hardware maker (ie - News Cutters, Video Editing) Gosh I could go on and on.

My studio has been working with Matrox for a long time, and we're not looking to change anytime soon. Their Tech Support alone makes up for any shortcommings on the Technology side of things. Matrox is a reputable standard, just as Digidesign Pro-Tools is for Audio (eventhough our Recording Facility is Nuendo based).

My point I guess is that Matrox doesn't have to cater to anyone really, they made the Display Adapter that THEY wanted for their proline, and then decided to capitalise in the Home Consumer Market. But the Parhelia tech was and is for the most part aimed at Pro Users like me! (That's not a Parhelia in my home system! :P )

Last edited by Leoncatz; 12-08-03 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 12-08-03, 02:09 PM   #50
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@ Nebuchadnezzar
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Old 12-08-03, 02:16 PM   #51
saturnotaku
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Default Re: Good Point! BUT...

Quote:
Originally posted by Leoncatz
What Matrox has over Nvidia and ATI is this. www.matrox.com

Just have a look there and see for yourself that Matrox is NOT hurting for money to back their business ventures. Like so many companies before, Nvidia and ATI maybe gone by the Chapter 11 wayside while Matrox keeps on chugging along.
If you think NVIDIA and/or ATI are going anywhere, I would like a large bag of whatever you're smoking.

Quote:
Matrox is an extremely well established High-End Video Hardware maker (ie - News Cutters, Video Editing) Gosh I could go on and on.
And this is exactly where Matrox belongs.

Quote:
My point I guess is that Matrox doesn't have to cater to anyone really, they made the Display Adapter that THEY wanted for their proline, and then decided to capitalise in the Home Consumer Market. But the Parhelia tech was and is for the most part aimed at Pro Users like me!
Show me a card Matrox has released in the last 12 months that was designed for the home consumer and gaming market. That's right, you can't. Again, Matrox has its niche and is doing quite well there. All of us here agree on that, as well as the fact that the Parhelia is not a gaming video card. If Joe Gamer is going to drop $350 on a video card, he's going to buy a Radeon 9800 Pro or GeForce FX 5900 Ultra. Joe Public is going to drop $100 on a GeForce FX 5200 or Radeon 9600 because 1) of name recognition and 2) product availability.

And why are we even having this discussion? The Parhelia is a non-contender in the market most members here care about - gaming.
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Old 12-08-03, 02:37 PM   #52
Leoncatz
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Default Re: Re: Good Point! BUT...

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
If you think NVIDIA and/or ATI are going anywhere, I would like a large bag of whatever you're smoking. [/b]
I don't smoke anything! I work with ATIs, NVs, and Matrox' every day, and I know what I'm saying. Just follow the Investment Markets and you'll notice very huge and frequent changes in the value of NV and ATI's stock prices all based on 'Technology to Market Value:R&D Investment Potential'.

As for Matrox, they are very well engrained in the High End Video market and the need for technology advancements even at this forefront has a much longuer climb to the next echelon making their market much more stable.

'Latest and Greatest Technoly Markets' only work with company models structured like ATI and Nvidia. 1 Main Product spread over 10 - 15 different implementations, all of which are spread between $28-136 of each other in retail price tag, from Entry-Level to High-End.
Companies such as ATI and Nvidia tend to go down the tubes much soon than companies such as Matrox, because they are much more susceptible to what the market can bear. Thereby the turnover for ATI and NV has greater variances.

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
[And why are we even having this discussion? The Parhelia is a non-contender in the market most members here care about - gaming. [/b]
At Work, I work with Parhelia!

At Home, I play games with Parhelia!

I want Quality before Quantity, Always! (better image vs. 5-20 extra fps)

After seeing the difference between my Parhelia and my brother's ATI 9800XT side by side playing Need For Speed Underground, my brother shakes his head in disbelief at the Quality of my card. Performance wise, there is almost NO difference because on the ATI and NV they slow the same amount using FSAA + Anistropic!

Besides the fact that I get Parhelias from Matrox for free, I don't care how much they are! We're getting a Dev Package again soon, and this time it's going to be the new PH256. ( I also get ATIs and NVs for free. All of them are Dev Cards, with everything unlocked. And in my books the Award for Best Overall Card goes to Matrox, Hands down!)

As for my brother, he's a Parhelia Convert now.

As for Optimizations for games, that could be handled by a brave base of community devs, I'm thinking about this every day and very much.

But I do understand what you're saying as for the majority of Home Users.

Leon

Last edited by Leoncatz; 12-08-03 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 12-08-03, 02:49 PM   #53
saturnotaku
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Default Re: Re: Re: Good Point! BUT...

Out of curiosity, what exactly are you developing? If it's something to do with gaming, you are probably very much in the minority when it comes to best overall hardware. If devs believed in Matrox as much as you apparently do, well, I don't think I need to tell you what the industry would be looking like. We would have a third legitimate contender and that would been better quality and pricing, which is a win-win situation for those of us who have to shell out our hard-earned cash for a card.

One thing Matrox does have that I wish would be included in ATI and NVIDIA consumer cards is dual DVI.
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Old 12-08-03, 03:10 PM   #54
Leoncatz
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Point! BUT...

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
Out of curiosity, what exactly are you developing? If it's something to do with gaming, you are probably very much in the minority when it comes to best overall hardware. (
Yeah, Games!

Easter Island Studio - Audio/Video Facility - http://www.easterislandstudio.com

Easter Island Interactive - Game Developper - Web Coming Soon!

---Licensing Authority for Electronic Golf Games for Tri-Par Golf http://www.tripargolf.com/

---Massivly Multiplayer Online Game still to be announced


Our thought was 'if we choose an obscure display adapter to develop with under linux, we may be able to support more platforms with greater ease'

That was about it!

All of the tools we use are Linux 64 compatible also, so we are already ahead just by supporting the weird configs.
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Old 12-08-03, 03:48 PM   #55
saturnotaku
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Default Re: Re: Re: Good Point! BUT...

Quote:
Originally posted by Leoncatz
'Latest and Greatest Technoly Markets' only work with company models structured like ATI and Nvidia. 1 Main Product spread over 10 - 15 different implementations, all of which are spread between $28-136 of each other in retail price tag, from Entry-Level to High-End.
Companies such as ATI and Nvidia tend to go down the tubes much soon than companies such as Matrox, because they are much more susceptible to what the market can bear. Thereby the turnover for ATI and NV has greater variances.
But at the same time, if ATI and NVIDIA were to follow Matrox' model, game and hardware innovation would be completely stymied. We'd still be running TNT2-class cards (that would still cost $300+) and still have a plethora of games that still had software rendering as an option.

There is a big enough demand for latest and greatest the competition will sustain both companies into the forseeable future.

Quote:
But I do understand what you're saying as for the majority of Home Users.
And this is the market that counts for ATI and NVIDIA, consumers who will be purchasing their cards as either add-in boards or direct from OEM manufacturers.

Quote:
Our thought was 'if we choose an obscure display adapter to develop with under linux, we may be able to support more platforms with greater ease'
How is selecting a graphics card that very few people use, that is behind the technology curve in many aspects when compared to ATI and NVIDIA, running it on an operating system that is used by less than 2% of the computing population going to allow you to do what you described? I would love to hear your reasoning as this relates to your game development.

Lastly, on your recording studio web page, you spelled fueled wrong.
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Old 12-08-03, 06:28 PM   #56
Leoncatz
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Point! BUT...

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
But at the same time, if ATI and NVIDIA were to follow Matrox' model, game and hardware innovation would be completely stymied. We'd still be running TNT2-class cards (that would still cost $300+) and still have a plethora of games that still had software rendering as an option.
Completely FALSE! They didn't compete because they knew that they had other priorities is more the truth.

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
And this is the market that counts for ATI and NVIDIA, consumers who will be purchasing their cards as either add-in boards or direct from OEM manufacturers.
Sure, it's that market that counts for ATI and NV, but that IS NOT how ATI and NV make their money. Anyone involved in the industry at administrative level would explain this fact quite well if they could, but I'm sure they don't want to give their marketting strategy away. ( it's much more twisted than anyone really cares to admit )

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
How is selecting a graphics card that very few people use, that is behind the technology curve in many aspects when compared to ATI and NVIDIA, running it on an operating system that is used by less than 2% of the computing population going to allow you to do what you described? I would love to hear your reasoning as this relates to your game development.
It's not difficult to make sense of my statement if you know the entire plan behind it, but I can't divulge our Tech Support model or else we could never be as competitive as we are.

I will however mention that the Parhelia is not behind the Tech Curve. It's on PAR and in some of it's features, beyond what most Home Users need. It was billed as a Workstation Developer card at the Trade Show when they originaly announced it. But like Matrox always does, they make everything available to anyone with money. They did however for some time after advertise in Game Mags all over for the Surround Gaming Feature, which they figured was an important feature. I do too.

No question or doubt about it! Our Development Costs are driven right down by using Linux and Linux 64. I can list a few items that we use.

Linux Way:
Linux/64 Client/Server $9/seat
The Gimp $Free/Seat
Linux Office Suite + Project Management $Free/seat
Maya $9000/seat


MS Way:
WinXPPro $499/seat
Win2K3: - Advanced Server
- Cluster
- SAN
anyhow the works was close to $30k with support contract

Maya $9000/seat
Adobe Photoshop $1499/seat
Office XP Pro $1100/seat
MS Project $399/seat
MS Visio $599/seat
+many more little utilities

SO, all that then the thought of choosing our Main developer card was a major headache. (ie - the card we would likely be using the most) We were initialy working with FX5900 Ultras, but kept getting frustrated at different times, usualy when we needed to really get something done and off the schedule. (See Murphy's Law)

We then tried the ATI9800XTa, but to no avail.

Finaly after much presure to get an extremely overdue item off the devsched we tried the Parhelia for the 1st time. To our amazement it didn't work the first try, we fiddled and then recompiled the Kernel for optimized Accelerator integration and 'voilą' it worked like a charm. No more headaches + really great tech support.

In the end we got great Hybrid Linux Multi-desktop, Full Acceleration for OpenGL where Matrox really shines brightly, and amazing tech support.

Quote:
Originally posted by saturnotaku
Lastly, on your recording studio web page, you spelled fueled wrong.
Thanks for that spelling correction. I'll let the webmaster know about it. What can I say, it's my partner's web design and he took care of that page.

Last edited by Leoncatz; 12-08-03 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 12-09-03, 04:31 PM   #57
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Point! BUT...

PS - by using odd hardware configurations as well as many other popular ones is usualy the best way to ensure that you will have very few compatibility issues with a very broad public. (OC'er boards are watched incessantly to keep up with current trends)

The post above relates more to our choice for Linux. The Parhelia was just a blessing in disguise. To note, we had the most difficulty securing Matrox Developement Packages, but when finaly did get it all squared away, they ended up being our top pick for our game studio.

Mostly I don't want to give you the impression that I'm arguing with you. Since I too am a Huge fan of NV, I still have an array of old cards arround the office. Voodoo Graphics, Rush, TNT, TNT2, GF2K, Gf4Ti4200. And I payed for all those, but from now or at least for a few years, I can relax my personal wallet.
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Old 12-09-03, 05:31 PM   #58
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I'm not trying to argue with you either, but rather I want to understand the reasoning behind some of the choices you have made. And you have explained them very clearly and rationally and I thank you for that.

I agree that Matrox has excellent Linux support. I'm surprised you even tried ATI because their Linux support is virtually non-existent.
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Old 12-10-03, 09:22 AM   #59
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Default Re: Re: Re: Good Point! BUT...

Quote:
Originally posted by Leoncatz
Besides the fact that I get Parhelias from Matrox for free, I don't care how much they are!
::Sniff:: ::Sniff::

I smell bull****.
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Old 12-10-03, 09:40 AM   #60
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Default Bull? Where? Where?

Quote:
Originally posted by stncttr908
::Sniff:: ::Sniff::

I smell bull****.

hahahaha, then get your nose out of your bum, chum!


I'm a Developer. It's not entirely free because we pay for a support contract, and that alone is an exorbitant amount of money. But basicaly, the cards are included in this package at no extra fee. And eventhough this is none of your business, we get cards round-about every 3-4 months, so quarterly I would say.

PS - I was forgetting that part that was none of your business. We also have Developer contracts with AMD, Intel, Orange, and with many others including ServerWorks(now owned by Broadcom)....list goes on right down to Logitech.

How would you expect Developers to test on so many different configurations for compatibility?

Flat fee for Support contracts and you get hardware hand over fist for testing purposes. Doesn't mean it's all amazing hardware, and super cool looking, or in retail condition (can you say beta bios MB release).

Thx for the question though.

Last edited by Leoncatz; 12-10-03 at 09:52 AM.
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