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Old 10-22-04, 07:50 AM   #1
tyx
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Unhappy why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

Alright! Its about time for me to get rid of my geforce DDR and get a brand new card. Personally, I was eyeing the 6600GT, however I have no idea when it will be avaliable and the HSI would probably put it out my budget. Now, I'm thinking of getting the 5900XT or 9800pro and flash either to 5950U or XT. Currently, I am leaning towards the 9800pro just because it performs better at 3dmark 05, although I am aware that it is the better performer.


Just wondering why the Geforce cards totally suck at 3dmark05?? It hurts to see a 9500pro the 5900U. Anyway, is it a driver probelm or something that will be solved in the near future or something like that??

Thanks
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Old 10-22-04, 08:04 AM   #2
Daneel Olivaw
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

The shaders used by 3dmark05 are favorable to th Radeons, however, that just means the gap is even more in favor of ATi, but the gap is still there to begin with.

In real world, however way you look at it, a 5900 beats any 9600-9500 (xcept the softmodded 8pipe 9500pro, depending on clocks), but in truth, the 9700-9800 though I don't own any, seem better than 5900. I mean full fledged 8 pipe 256bit 9700-9800.

Though I'm very happy with my 5900. 3Dmark is not a game you know. So purchase keeping price and true performance in mind. When I bought my 5900xt (runs like a 5900U) almost a year ago, no 9800pro was anywhere close in price.

Btw, try to find a 6800LE instead.
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Old 10-22-04, 08:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

Gee... the 6800LE is almost non-existant here in Singapore
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Old 10-22-04, 08:16 AM   #4
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

...and everywhere else...
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Old 10-22-04, 09:38 AM   #5
Daneel Olivaw
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

oops
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Old 10-22-04, 10:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

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The shaders used by 3dmark05 are favorable to th Radeons, however, that just means the gap is even more in favor of ATi, but the gap is still there to begin with.
Shaders aren't favorable to the Radeons, it's plain SM2.0.

Quote:
In real world, however way you look at it, a 5900 beats any 9600-9500
In old (dx8.0) games, yes, in thrue DX9.0 sm2.0 games, no.

Valve had to create a special mixed mode path (DX8.0/9.0) in the coming HL2 specially for the GF FX, because in thrue DX9.0 the cards cannot produce decent framerates. All Radeon300/350 cards fully render DX9.0 in HL2.

Quote:
Now, I'm thinking of getting the 5900XT or 9800pro and flash either to 5950U or XT.
Without a heartbeat i should go for the 9800pro, in all coming gametitles (which require DX9.0/sm2.0 to see all the eye-candy) it simply kicks FX5900 ass, hard.

Last edited by Apple; 10-22-04 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 10-22-04, 11:04 AM   #7
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

1st: Looking at pure shader fillrate numbers, ATi GPUs are roughly 2x faster than equivalent NVidia GPUs. High-end NV30,35 are 4 pipelines architectures, while mainstream NV31,34,36 are only 2 pipelines architectures (forget the ability to pull out 4 pixels in certain situations): that is half of their ATi counterparts. No surprise if in shader intensive apps their performance sink.

2nd: There's a noticeable speed hit when using more than 2 (4 in FP16) temp registers. I wonder why NVidia overlooked this point in the NV3x architecture, considering that in shader model 1.4/2.0 texture registers cannot be used to hold temp information like in PS 1.1

Although the whole picture for NV3x doesn't look good, it seems that shader model 2.a gives some nice speed boosts over plain 2.0 in 3DMark05 and, hopefully, in games too. NV3x users should be grateful to ATi for making their new R4xx line of cards PS 2.b only. This gives the developers some incentive to include in their games support for PS 2.a/b too.
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Old 10-22-04, 12:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyx
Alright! Its about time for me to get rid of my geforce DDR and get a brand new card. Personally, I was eyeing the 6600GT, however I have no idea when it will be avaliable and the HSI would probably put it out my budget. Now, I'm thinking of getting the 5900XT or 9800pro and flash either to 5950U or XT. Currently, I am leaning towards the 9800pro just because it performs better at 3dmark 05, although I am aware that it is the better performer.


Just wondering why the Geforce cards totally suck at 3dmark05?? It hurts to see a 9500pro the 5900U. Anyway, is it a driver probelm or something that will be solved in the near future or something like that??
Nope, since it's an architectural/design problem it's pretty hard to fix it via drivers. If you want something now, go with the 9800 Pro. But if you'd prefer the 6600GT and can wait a couple months, the AGP version should be out. Also, why would you need to worry about the HSI? That's something the card manufacturer and Nvidia deal with, not the end user like you. It may add a few dollars to the price of the card, but it shouldn't be outrageous.
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Old 10-22-04, 12:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

3dmark05 measures VERTEX shaders speed. ATi cards are good in vertex shaders and hence why they get a higher score. Also there is ALOT PS 2.0, 2_a shaders in it. And we all know that the FX's are slow when it comes to PS 2.0 2_A shaders
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Old 10-22-04, 05:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyx
Gee... the 6800LE is almost non-existant here in Singapore
any chance you could save an extra 60-70 (american) dollars and grab the regular 6800. i feel it is more future proof(if there is such a thing) than the 9800 pro

also 6600gt agp will be out soon(hopefully in stores by december 1st, my guess)
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Old 10-22-04, 05:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarheadMM
3dmark05 measures VERTEX shaders speed. ATi cards are good in vertex shaders and hence why they get a higher score. Also there is ALOT PS 2.0, 2_a shaders in it. And we all know that the FX's are slow when it comes to PS 2.0 2_A shaders

3dmark also is pixel shader limited. But geometry plays a huge role in 3dmark's performance too.




That being said, 3dmark05 Is pixel shader bound too. But its just as much vertex limited as it is pixel limited.


ALso I'd like to point out. FX cards are at their fastest when running a Shader 2.0A profile. verses a standard 2.0 path. 2.0A compiled path is optimal for the FX series.
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Old 10-23-04, 01:40 AM   #12
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Default Re: why do fx cards perform so badly in 3dmark05

Quote:
also 6600gt agp will be out soon(hopefully in stores by december 1st, my guess)
hopefully
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