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Old 02-02-05, 02:17 AM   #13
Knot3D
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

^ yeah, but only so that budget gamers with their FX5200's could also enjoy playing the game.

I assume most ppl who are regular gamers or graphics ho's have at least a 2,4 ghz cpu with a 6600GT, 6800Nu or something like that.

It's just that D3 is artistically very limited. Also, would D3 engine be able to feature those prerendered radiosity effects too ? If they could combine that with the realtime lighting that would be great.
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Old 02-02-05, 11:06 AM   #14
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Thumbs down Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

No bias on that site at all.

Just go to the Engine listing and try and find:
Quake3 - all you get is DXQuake3, a DirectX version of quake3.
Doom3 - Nothing
Source - The source Engine
Unreal - Unreal 2 & 3
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Old 02-02-05, 12:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

That was the equivalent of one of us ranting about game engines. I got a good laugh out of that "developer's" game engine screenshots, though. I wonder if he is aware that most people assume that when you call yourself a "developer" you are implying that you are currently employed?
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Old 02-06-05, 10:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

NV40, There was a gloss map modification written for Doom 3. It was about 3 lines of code. That eliminated the plastic problem and you can simulate any material with the gloss maps. Also, at one point Id software had the *FULL POLYGON* models running around in the game...I mean the ones they made the normal maps out of. It ran slowly, but it worked.

Also, in a JC email I posted, D3 engine also has HDR, all that's needed is better integration with the systems, but it works well enough.

Finally,all textures in D3 are 256x256. Now imagine them all at 1024x1024 and the character textures at 2048x2048.

The Engine is the most advanced out...period. Whether the game makes use of it well, that's another issue.

I hate how people like the moron who wrote the article can't separate engine from game. Hell, i'm 14 years old and I can do it.
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Old 02-06-05, 01:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

You're only 14?
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Old 02-06-05, 02:08 PM   #18
Intel17
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Yes. I think I used to come off as that when I first joined nVnews. I don't think I should have said my age...now the likelyhood of people actually listening to what I say will decrease :-(
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Old 02-06-05, 02:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
Yes. I think I used to come off as that when I first joined nVnews. I don't think I should have said my age...now the likelyhood of people actually listening to what I say will decrease :-(
Actually, it's the opposite. The intelligence you demonstrate in your posts is not expected from someone your age, and so your "higher than average" intelligence would be something that others would consider when reading your posts.
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Old 02-06-05, 03:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoulstriker
Actually, it's the opposite. The intelligence you demonstrate in your posts is not expected from someone your age, and so your "higher than average" intelligence would be something that others would consider when reading your posts.
agreed
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Old 02-06-05, 04:23 PM   #21
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
NV40, There was a gloss map modification written for Doom 3. It was about 3 lines of code. That eliminated the plastic problem and you can simulate any material with the gloss maps. Also, at one point Id software had the *FULL POLYGON* models running around in the game...I mean the ones they made the normal maps out of. It ran slowly, but it worked.

Also, in a JC email I posted, D3 engine also has HDR, all that's needed is better integration with the systems, but it works well enough.

Finally,all textures in D3 are 256x256. Now imagine them all at 1024x1024 and the character textures at 2048x2048.

The Engine is the most advanced out...period. Whether the game makes use of it well, that's another issue.

Doom3 have limitations like any other engine.. is far from perfect. it took crytek many months to add HDR in their game. Doom3 game doesnt have anything of that. however the engine if it has any sort of "HDR" most likely will be a very simple low dynamic hack.. using pixel shaders and no FPblending ,means no advanced HDR effects in any game..like transparencies and reflections. (they way only NV40 can do.) and since this is only an NVidia thing.. and *the fact* the he got Nv40 cards pretty much when Doom3 was finished. at Gamedevconference2004 ,when the game was in bug fixing stage. the chances that there is anything interesting of "HDR" for the MOD community are NONE. dont listen the people that confuse "bloom" effects with "HDR" just like the ones where saying they exist in CS:source. even Valve demos where not HDR.. just simpler lighting tricks. Farcry Sm3.0 patch in the other hand support it.

ANy discussion about Engines in a -gaming forum- are useless ,if you dont analize them from a MOD making perpective of view. *if you can't get any use from it as a gamer* .at the time you need to write code or custom fragments shaders or change the way the renderer works .. what you are doing is not modding , but a diferent engine .which in any case you are doing a diferent game.it will be better that you design your own engine if you have the knowledge.. the sky is the limit. or pay thousands for a license and get the full source code of the engine and game code.similar to what Splintercell3 is to UT2k4. in which the first one support Sm3.0 ,but the core game engine is still based on a DX7. SO writing a custom renderer or adding HDR.. and enhancing all its network/outdoors/lightings limitations it migh be still a game using DOom3 engine ,but with heavy modifications in it.. something very diferent in some areas from what carmack designed. in few cases it can be called a hack ,like the "HDR MOD". which is nothing but bloom effects possible in any pixelshader 1.0 card.

my english is not good enough .. to follow the speed of anyone speaking fast. but i can read without problems.. and someone posted his speech completely in this forum but i can;t find it where it now.. to show you where he speaks about his engine limitations and that he is working on it now.

http://www.3ddownloads.com/linuxgame...CD571FD4F5139F

if you can find me a place where to find the Full speech in text.. to show you where he explain D3 engine limitations.. and what it means.
however found this thread where someone received an email with more info about this..



Quote:
> Hi, > I'm currently messing around with shaders and materials, and have come to some issues. Mainly I've been wanting to have a shader that allows for things to be changed by the shader and then lit appropriately (such as for parallax mapping on selected textures). Or having waves through a vertex shader but still have that lit as well. Can kinda get around some things by modulating a white diffuse map with the texture I want but doesn't work for everything of course. So is there anyway I can specify a different light interaction shader for a material? Thanks! > > John Rittenhouse >

Sorry, D3 doesn't have a way to force different lighting interaction shaders. That is an obvious thing changing in new code, but D3 is still baselined to support non-fragment program cards.
- John Carmack
from the horse mouth.. you just can't "fix" Doom3 materials interactivity with Lighting by just editing a fragment shader here and there.. any 3danimation software that emulates specular values for for diferent materials use Mathematics values and physics from the real world. things like glass ,ceramic or water refractions is a complete science to simulated it realistically . already 3danimation software can simulate it .. but do it in a realtime game that should run at 30fps..is something completely diferent.. probably will will not see it.. until raytracing is used in game.

THis is no way saying Doom3 engine is not powerfull or so.. it is.. it have many next generation stuff in the game.. it just that Doom3 engine was designed for the most part with the needs of Doom3.. no more no less.. and any incomming games using Doom3 engine ,doing a diferent game ..will be updated the engine by their developers for their needs in their game . just like it happened with CALL of Duty and MOH games.. they doesnt look like quake 3.. but still its basic core is based around QUake3. Hl2 still have bits of code from quake1/2.. according with -JC ..for example.

Last edited by Nv40; 02-06-05 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 02-06-05, 04:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

From a lighting/shadowing side Doom 3 is the most advanced engine out, but it would be stupid to say it is the most advanced engine in other areas.

I was wondering if anyone does 3d programming here. Does anyone have anything to showoff, because the screenshots from that link weren't the best, but looked pretty good for only being from one guy? Has anyone else done anything like that?

Intel17, where did you hear that id put the original models in? That seems like a fan boy exaggeration, because I really can't imagine a ZBrush model that consists of over 1.5 million polys being able to run on today's hardware in real-time. Also, as Nv40 mentioned John Carmack himself has commented about the problem with the models look plastic and with texture seams. The general way the models look are part of the engine, because as you will see with future games the models will have the same similar look. Just check out Quake 4 for instance.
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Old 02-06-05, 06:02 PM   #23
Intel17
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Here's my source for the models thing...

From Brian Harris, of Id Software..."The only limitations I know of as far as texture size is set by the
video card. For example, my 5900 Ultra supports textures up to
4096x4096, of couse I'd quickly use up my video ram that way (a single
32 bit texture of that size is 64MB). As for polycounts, the only real
limitation has to do with the 8 bit stencil buffer and shadows. If
there are more than 256 overlapping shadow planes then the shadows will
get totally blown out (things that should be in shadow aren't etc..).
There's no real easy way to check for when this happens except for
through trial and error. At one time, we actually had the full poly
characters running around and it worked fine (just horribly slow)."

Also, yes Carmack mentioned the texture seam as a problem, but it's not an engine problem. Also, the plastic problem he mentioned wasn't anything that couldn't have been fixed (and it has been fixed with the glossmap mod).

Basically, someone took Humus' Doom 3 tweak which changed the specular lookup table into math operations, then the guy added a line or so of code which allowed the value "specExp" or Specular Exponent, which is what Carmack was talking about in his next engine doing that kind of lighting, rather than a bunch of biases and squares which could sort-of simulate a specular power, but due to the older cards he had to support, even the fragment program paths had to emulate the older GeForce 3 stuff, to be modified, through the diffuse alpha channel (it apparently doesn't work in the specular alpha channel).

So yeah, the specular problem wasn't at all a problem to fix, however it's fixed now, so you can't use that as a D3 limitation any longer, as you can specify one different gloss map per material, to simulate plastic, metal, skin, wood etc..

How many times have I repeatedly stated this problem has been fixed?

EDIT: He only mentioned you couldn't use a different interaction program per-surface. This isn't as necessary with gloss-maps (tighter/broader highlights).

Now what this prevents you from doing is stuff like sub-surface scatttering per-material, so light doesn't just bounce or transport the same way through everything. Also, partial translucency etc.. would best use multiple interaction programs.

Now, what more do I have to say?

EDIT2: Also regarding the HDR. It's not a low-dynamic range hack. It renders to a floating point buffer (16 bits per component) using floating-point blending (note, carmack has been advocating floating point render buffers since January 2003, so I don't think he'd HACK it). Basically the engine has the core HDR stuff, and you can turn it on, write custom fragment programs which use HDR etc.. but it's not integrated well enough for artists to have an easy time. So yes, it has HDR and it's rendering to a true floating point rendering buffer (of course there's that tone-mapping pass in the end which adds the post-processed effects to the 8bit per-component scene, but better than Valve's psedo-HDR)

Please get your facts straight. I've thoroughly researched the Doom 3 engine versus CryEngine etc... and I don't talk out of my ass.
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Old 02-06-05, 06:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

I know that Brian Harris is the intern from Digipen that id hired, which would make him a valid source except for the fact that you didn't give me a link, only his quote. I seriously doubt that those high of poly models worked since you get hiccups on screen when you have 2 or more of the low-poly models. Links would be nice for the rest of stuff; it's not that I don't believe I just want to read more into it.

Did you even listen to John Carmack at QuakeCon? He mentioned those as engine problems when asked what can be improved in the next iteration. Can you also show me a link to some of this HDR stuff, because the last I heard they implemented, but couldn't get the desired results so they decided to not pursue it any furthur? I would also like to see a link to the plastic vs. fixed screenshots, because I haven't seen anything of the sort yet.
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