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Old 02-06-05, 07:58 PM   #25
Intel17
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

To anyone who wants to read further into these emails, I'll forward them to you.
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Old 02-06-05, 07:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIWTHI
I know that Brian Harris is the intern from Digipen that id hired, which would make him a valid source except for the fact that you didn't give me a link, only his quote. I seriously doubt that those high of poly models worked since you get hiccups on screen when you have 2 or more of the low-poly models. Links would be nice for the rest of stuff; it's not that I don't believe I just want to read more into it.

Did you even listen to John Carmack at QuakeCon? He mentioned those as engine problems when asked what can be improved in the next iteration. Can you also show me a link to some of this HDR stuff, because the last I heard they implemented, but couldn't get the desired results so they decided to not pursue it any furthur? I would also like to see a link to the plastic vs. fixed screenshots, because I haven't seen anything of the sort yet.
No, it's just Carmack put it experimentally to try out the tech, since he had just gotten the NV40. It still needs to be made easier for the artists to use, and he still needs to do the NV30 and R300 versions of HDR.
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Old 02-06-05, 08:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Please forward those emails to me. Thanks.

kscroggindistrict@yahoo.com
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Old 02-06-05, 08:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

There was never a comparison for me. D3 is a much better engine, with only downsides were being its high requirements and the fact we won't see its full potential for years to come. It's also, I assume, more difficult to mod for. Either that or the mod community is just rather lazy.

Valve made the Source engine look much better than it would be in anyone else's hands. HL2's art and immersion was what made it look so good, and thats in the hands of developers, not the engine. Valve could do the same with the D3 engine given the chance. To compare the two engines based on the two games isn't very fair.
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Old 02-06-05, 11:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
Here's my source for the models thing...

From Brian Harris, of Id Software..."The only limitations I know of as far as texture size is set by the
video card. For example, my 5900 Ultra supports textures up to
4096x4096, of couse I'd quickly use up my video ram that way (a single
32 bit texture of that size is 64MB). As for polycounts, the only real
limitation has to do with the 8 bit stencil buffer and shadows. If
there are more than 256 overlapping shadow planes then the shadows will
get totally blown out (things that should be in shadow aren't etc..).
There's no real easy way to check for when this happens except for
through trial and error. At one time, we actually had the full poly
characters running around and it worked fine (just horribly slow)."

Also, yes Carmack mentioned the texture seam as a problem, but it's not an engine problem. Also, the plastic problem he mentioned wasn't anything that couldn't have been fixed (and it has been fixed with the glossmap mod).

Basically, someone took Humus' Doom 3 tweak which changed the specular lookup table into math operations, then the guy added a line or so of code which allowed the value "specExp" or Specular Exponent, which is what Carmack was talking about in his next engine doing that kind of lighting, rather than a bunch of biases and squares which could sort-of simulate a specular power, but due to the older cards he had to support, even the fragment program paths had to emulate the older GeForce 3 stuff, to be modified, through the diffuse alpha channel (it apparently doesn't work in the specular alpha channel).

So yeah, the specular problem wasn't at all a problem to fix, however it's fixed now, so you can't use that as a D3 limitation any longer, as you can specify one different gloss map per material, to simulate plastic, metal, skin, wood etc..

How many times have I repeatedly stated this problem has been fixed?
Please get your facts straight. I've thoroughly researched the Doom 3 engine versus CryEngine etc... and I don't talk out of my ass.
Yes.. but you use to talk at times from your emotions and not from facts. and nope the glossmap problem is not fixed like it is clearly visible here.. in hte GLoss hack.

http://www.forumplanet.com/planetdoo...id=1578849&p=3

WHat he is doing is playing with Doom3 code to achieve a diferent look in D3 reflections. while it looks diferent is doing the same mistake of using an universal value for all things.even more because Doom3 use correct values for hard metals ,he is using fantasy ones. steel doesnt shine like a mirror. unless is a very polished piece of silver or GOld. hehe . neither the human hand is glossy like the mod shows. plastics ,ceramics ,marble ,GOld..glass,are so a better place for that mod ..althought still it is using arbitrary values nothing realistic.. hard Metals or rough plastics have relfections just like the ones in Doom3.. that why Doom3 engine works very well for Doom3. or similar look games. however for organic things like skin ,it might look plastic at times. specially when is wet. there is Real science behind the reflections of materials.. those are scientific values not ramdonly taken. contrary to others belief not all real life materials have the same values.. a Rusty metal doesnt shine like a new one..or doesnt shine at all. aluminium doesnt shine exactly like steel . the sand vs the wood. This is far from a Fix..this is just what the author says it is -> a GLoss MOD. the author doesnt claim is a "fix" to solve the rendering limits of D3 engine ,only that its a good aproach and looks "better" according to him. and subsurface scattering is a diferent thing .. dont mix GLoss maps with it. they are very diferent tehcniques.

i dont have the programming knowledge.. but all the visual things that Gamedevelopers always want to do in their games -are already possible- in 3danimation packages... EVERY SINGLE LITTLE THING and even much more however not in real time.. So when it comes to realism in graphics .. is not enough for things to look "better" they need to look CORRECT. the way it is in real life. no more ,no less. So forget about if anyone tells you X or Y MOD Solves what carmack have not done himslef in 5 years for his game. if it is so simple as 3-5 lines of code..why he doesnt fixet it before?

motion blur ,particle efects ,Depth of field ,enviroment mapping ,Bumpmapping,Displacement mapping ,HDR,Subsurfacescattering have been used for have so many years in the Proffesional market ,many many years as it is only NOW when they are starting to be used in games. so you have small steps here and there with every Dx7 ,Dx8,Dx9 Sm3.0..hardware. and developers simulating a little bit more with every new hardware. if you want to *really* know about graphics ,go to the source. is the 3dARtist that you need to ask ,not the programmers.. thats why Idsoftware and every other game developer have in their gamedevelopment ARtists..they not only design levels and characters but also they serve as a guide to the programmers about *Where* they need go.Good Programmers only can tell you possible ways *HOW* to get there.

Most likelly John carmack will not be half as good as he is Conding graphics engines if it where not for his TOp artists in their team.
.. that shows him cool things they would like to see in the game. and that is because its not possible to build anything in a game (graphics wise),if you dont first visualize it or see it first somewhere else.. period.
and here is where GRaphics artist have their place. heck.. before writing a single C++ line for a new game . you need a storyboard and concept art to show where the game need to go. in a game development pipeline.

So i know the limitations of Doom3 engine from the visual side because i know what they need to achieve cinematic quality renderings.. even if i have no clue about how to do it.. at least with C++ programming. So Dont ask Carmack about WHere games graphics needs to go in the future.. because most likely he will very very wrong ..( i learned that when he was believing the D3engine will be capable of FInalFantasy movie graphics ) he can only tell you more or less where *graphics hardware or game develpment need to Go in the near future* . but again based on the feedback from artists...because his main focus and main JOB is the technical side of things of HOW to do it. Programmers main job is to be problem solvers.. graphics artist main job is to be creative and design new graphics never seen before... thats why any medium level artist will always be *atleast* ONe step ahead of programmers. when it comes to graphics ; more advanced artist can do things people usually never imagined where possible to do before. is like when you want to build a really good looking building you dont ask an ENgineer for that.. but an arquitech. the Engineer can only tell you the technical side of how to do it that it doesnt colapse. but he needs first a guide and ideas from an arquitech of what to do.


Doom3 engine the way it was when Doom3 was released was made with Doom3 in mind .. nothing more ,nothing less. because the powerfull lighting engine is not efficient for all the diferent games outthere. for the reasons already explained.. ANy other Upgrade to the D3 ENgine for his next game is a completely DIferent discussion it's a diferent engine. and if he manage to do all the things he is working the next game indeed will be very promising . (crossing fingers).

here is the speech from -JC.. if you want to hear it

and here in text format

a few notes from quakecon that clearly explain the main limitations of D3 engine.

Quote:
Quote: John Carmack Quakecon 2004 Keynote I'm mostly going to ramble on about graphics technology and hindsight on the Doom 3 engine and where I'm going for the next generation, and I'll talk a bit about sound and some of the other technologies. So, the decisions that I made with the Doom 3 renderer were made over four years ago, and they turned out pretty good as far as I'm concerned with how the hardware evolved and what we were able to produce in the game with that, but it is time now to go ahead and re-evaluate where things are with the current hardware and where things are likely to be over the next several years, and basically make a new rendering engine based on those decisions. So there are a few flaws you can see in Doom 3 if you look at it from a graphics perspective. One of the most obvious ones is you get some seams down some of the character heads where a mirroring repeat is used on the texturing. That's not so much an engine problem as we just should go ahead and spend the extra texture memory and not have any texture seams across directly visible areas, but there may be some things I do with the calculation of the tangent space vectors that can clean that up a little bit. One of the other things people have commented on is that the skin tone on the characters doesn't nlook particularly realistic as a skin tone. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that *we only have * a single level of specularity. There's only one kind of power factor that goes onto everything. We can make brighter or dimmer specular highlights but we can't make tighter and broader specular highlights. That's mostly the result of the original engine being done on the notchy feature sets of the early register combiners for the NV10/NV20 class hardware. With anything that's DX9 class hardware or modern, that's basically NV30/R300 class, there's no reason whatsoever to have limitations to a particular specular exponent. We don't actually use an exponent, it's not a power series like a conventional cosine raised to a particular power. It's actually, in Doom, a kind of a windowed function that does some bias and squares, which was something that worked out reasonably on the early fixed function hardware, and was actually a little bit easier to control because it has a very finite falloff, where in theory classical phong shading with a cosine exponent doesn't cover completely falloff and you end up with a slight addition across everything and it's a little bit nicer to have that completely windowed off. The fragment program paths actually do use a texture lookup table for the specular exponent, and I just made that texture to be exactly what was calculated in the earlier fixed function hardware, but you can easily replace that with anything that you want. What I've done in the newer renderering paths is made it a two-dimensional texture, so all of the specular lookups happen with an additional rendering map that has the specularity factor in there. What we call specular maps in Doom 3 are more commonly called "gloss maps," where it's just affecting the intensity of the specular highlight, but now also add in *new technology* the ability to change the breadth of the specular highlight.That lets you do a lot of interesting things with... the highlight that we've got in Doom is really quite broad for a specular highlight, and [b]it's about what you'd get on a really dull plastic; something that wasn't very shiny, is a kind of fairly broad, spread out thing. You don't get anything that looks like a really good metallic highlight, or things that would be shiny cast plastic, so there's a lot of neat stuff that you get just playing with that, and going ahead and having some that are even broader and some that tighten down a whole lot to give you bright little pin-point highlights on there.
in simply words..
Carmack is working and fixing the things he understand need to be adressed in the Engine. THe famous complain of people for the "plastic look" of Doom3 comes exactly because the game use an universal value for every polygon or surface in the game. thanksfully it was a design decision to support a very Broad level of hardware from Geforce1 to Geforce6. same with the pointing heads.. a texture issue. the interesting thingsyou can do with correct reflections and specular highlights are unlimited. Wood ,paper ,Skin ,Ceramic..Sand,glass , (things that will give a big jump in the graphics department..) "Gloss mods" for a single material with ramdom values is far from a "Fix" for this. if things looked plastic before ,they will now too shiny with the mod. hopefully his next engine will be based around the possibilities in Dx9 hardware. with a complete library of material shaders with correct reflection values.. because relying in the MOD community too much for people to finish what the game should already have is not the way to go. Raytracing will be the next Big thing .. in 5-10 more years. (something that exist in the PRofessional graphics software since decades ago). Gamedevelopers doesnt "invent graphics" . what they do is to implement techniques *already available* somewhere else ..most of the times they comes from the profesional market and later simulated or hacked to use those techniques in the gaming world. and one last thing people should also remember is that many programmers need to sell their engine.. or sell you something of the Company that he/she works. so you need to take at times with grain of salt the the things they say.. because not many will tell you the whole truth about something they need to sponsor or to $sell.. Idsoftware and Epic are the ones that with less PR marketing and the ones i think have more chances to take graphics to the next level.. at least in games..

Hl2 is a great game also .. it is a engine designed for Hl2 in mind. but its lighting/shadows limitations are far greater . the game simply will never be able to produce the quality graphics that D3 can do . (when it do it right) since the game doesnt support any kind of realtime reflections ,or normalmapping at all .. however that doesnt stop their fans to see "revolutionary graphics" when the truth is there is nothing new there diferent from the quality you can get in Dx7 games.

here are Hl2 characters imported to the UT2k4 engine.. some even claim they look better there.


So as you see every engine have limitations.. each game wasdesigned for a diferent game needs. it all depends of what you want to do in a game.

btw.. nice email from BRian.. thanks for posting that.
interesting info.

Last edited by Nv40; 02-07-05 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 02-18-05, 01:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

I'm still waiting for those emails to be forwarded to me.
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Old 02-18-05, 04:12 PM   #31
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Forwarded.
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Old 02-18-05, 04:15 PM   #32
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIWTHI
I'm still waiting for those emails to be forwarded to me.
Oh Intel17 please don't tell me he's referring to those e-mails you got from Carmack. How could he not know you got them? You even posted a thread about it. Cool stuff.
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Old 02-18-05, 05:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Yeah, I remember, and that thread was linked to many forums as well :-)

So yeah, D3 has HDR...and it's not, as Nv40 puts it "a low dynamic range hack". :-)
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Old 02-18-05, 05:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

a bit about Carmack regarding Floatingpoint Framebuffers (for HDR among other things)..
As HDR was mentioned and such..
http://www.webdog.org/cgi-bin/finger...20030208202555

Quote:
The future is in floating point framebuffers. One of the most noticeable
thing this will get you without fundamental algorithm changes is the ability
to use a correct display gamma ramp without destroying the dark color
precision. Unfortunately, using a floating point framebuffer on the current
generation of cards is pretty difficult, because no blending operations are
supported, and the primary thing we need to do is add light contributions
together in the framebuffer. The workaround is to copy the part of the
framebuffer you are going to reference to a texture, and have your fragment
program explicitly add that texture, instead of having the separate blend unit
do it. This is intrusive enough that I probably won't hack up the current
codebase, instead playing around on a forked version.

Floating point framebuffers and complex fragment shaders will also allow much
better volumetric effects, like volumetric illumination of fogged areas with
shadows and additive/subtractive eddy currents.
(this was obviously written before NV40)
Think his .plans are good read..
Like this bit here from april 2000 when he calls for 64bit precision formats..
http://www.webdog.org/cgi-bin/finger...20000429013039

Quote:
64 bit pixels. It is The Right Thing to do. Hardware vendors: don't you be
the company that is the last to make the transition.
Really looking forward to the new engine..
When they said they were starting on a new engine and concepting a new game they mentioned they should have something to demo (of the engine) within a few months if I remember right..
Hopefully we can get a glimpse of it soon
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Old 02-18-05, 07:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

D3's potential hasn't even been maxed...I can't wait to see the new engine!
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Old 02-18-05, 08:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Thanks for forwarding that one email even though that wasn't what I was asking for. I never asked about HDR lighting, as I already knew that id had worked on it, but had only experimented on nVidia cards. Still, the email was an interesting couple of lines. The email I was talking about was the one from Brian Harris where he talked about the gloss map problem and running Doom 3 with the original high-poly models.
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