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Old 02-21-05, 06:32 PM   #73
Intel17
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

I contacted my friend who was the leader of the MOD team with the good water. I hope I'll get a response and some screens!

Nv40, sorry if I came off harsh...been having a pretty craptastic day.
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Old 02-22-05, 02:23 PM   #74
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

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Originally Posted by Intel17
I contacted my friend who was the leader of the MOD team with the good water. I hope I'll get a response and some screens!

Nv40, sorry if I came off harsh...been having a pretty craptastic day.

np...


what i would really like you to see.. if that a missing feature "out of the box" from a game is just that a missing feature.. is that simple.

QUake3 was a great engine.. too advanced for their times.. in term of graphics ..but If quake3 never shipped with real single player . but idsoftware says that is not a problem because they allowed in their SDK people to program whathever single player experience they want .. then still is a missing feature.. that will *GREATLY* limit the MOD community in their freedom in the things they will like to do in their game.. even if some lucky gamer with Good coding skills manage to add later in the engine "the feature" a year later in their game. Why missing features out of the box in a game is very unfortunate? because it will be dificult if not impossible for the MOD community to fix that in the game.. even though if someone manage to add X or Y feature.. it will be either too late for the community to use it or it will not have the commercial quality that people want to see in a "next generation" game.

while quake3 never supported single player.. (even thought there were projects quake3 mods that claimed that will do it.. but never saw them..still waiting for them ) it was very good in multiplayer.. at least in deathmatch.. and we already know that the futureproof of any game.. it life span, depends in the multiplayer side.. games that doesnt have strong multiplayer simply are ignored in a few months (something that Doom3 is really weak) because people finish the game in a day or more , and never re-play it again more than 1 or 2 times.. and if on top of that the developers are not very helpfull with the MOd community with the single player side,and doesnt make it ,very easy for anyone to create MODs that doesnt look like doom3 ,play diferent or at least play it..just like succesfull MP past idS games.. and people needs to rely on the help of a struggling community , then its MOD community will be doomed indeed ,and it will be completely ignored Doom3 ,once other games using the same engine or other engines have the things the community look to see in a game. email support and a simple official site.is far from the things the community needs to take the game to the next level.. i remember by the times of QUake3 seeing an official HEAVY MANUAL .. a complete book ,made by one developer to assist the quake3 mod community . and on top of that he was a frequent poster in forums answering questions of the community .. unfortunately that developer doesnt work anymore in idsoftware.. ->Paul Jaquays. amazingly still today he post in quake3 forums *5 years later* helping people with doubts about their projects . that's kick ass support.. With so much competition these days. so many other good games,already released or close to be released,with so many freedom for the community to play . there will be no loyalty to any developers anymore . if you dont deliver what people wants people will move ..to any other game that allows them to do what they look. is that simple.

i have been following the D3 community since day 1, and many D3 fan sites have closed its doors ,my list of D3 sites have been reduced greatly . there is a growing list of MODs moving their projects to other games . nobody is playing Doom3 online. while games that came later or many years earlier "with a lot less technology" have more popularity these days. i think the signs are already showing up. if you ask me. and i really doubt that unless something drastically changes in the support side .. Doom3 will be ignored completely in less than a year.. and people will be playing other games. either with an upgraded D3 engine.. or done in completely new engines. i think idsoftware is victim of they own past sucess.. they though just because they are TOP developers and the game looks good ,people will finish what they left unfinished or not included in their game. time will tell.. its only the German community that is saving the ass of Doom3 future.but im really skeptic of the future of that game. i will be impressed if they achieve 1/10 of the interest people showed thorugh years for any past idsoftware game. and again im not putting down doom3 engine.. if you look again at my first post ,replying to an article of engine comparisons ,you will see this. is not the end and there is alot of competition with many many other great games outhere and many others really looking forward.

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Old 02-22-05, 02:42 PM   #75
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

I see what you're saying NV40 and kind of agree... however...

... Quake 4 is in the works. As it's supposed to have a Multiplayer aspect akin to that of Q3, but with the D3 engine and Q2 single player, my guess is that that will take over as the showcase game for the D3 engine the day it comes out. While I agree that it's a shame that the D3 engine, being technologically advanced but lacking certain aspects, is being ignored a little, I really don't think that id ever planned for people to 'finish their game'. Doom 3, as far as they're concerned, is 2 things:
* A Game for sales. It's succeeded in this.
* A showcase for the engine, so that other developers will license it. We won't know if they've succeeded in this for some time, until we see if there are going to be a large number of games, ala CoD, released that use it.

I think it extremely unlikely that id actually care if modders use their engine or not - they're certainly not going to be selling a fan made water shader to those who choose to buy the engine, and any decent dev shop these days should have someone who's at least competent at writing shaders.

Least, that's my opinion.
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Old 02-22-05, 02:59 PM   #76
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

There's nothing wrong with the Doom 3 Engine, it's mainly the tools and the pre-shipped content that blow.
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Old 02-22-05, 03:13 PM   #77
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

yeah the bar on tools shipped with games has gone up massivly the last years, id hasnt kept up on that development too good (it seems to me, not really done any research about it), the editor in D3 (at a fast glance) seems a bit complicated, compared to Hammer for example..
Which is a shame as the engine allows for easier editing without running vis for ages before seeing the lighting and such..
WYSIWG type of thing..
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Old 02-22-05, 03:36 PM   #78
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtestube
I see what you're saying NV40 and kind of agree... however...

... Quake 4 is in the works. As it's supposed to have a Multiplayer aspect akin to that of Q3, but with the D3 engine and Q2 single player, my guess is that that will take over as the showcase game for the D3 engine the day it comes out. While I agree that it's a shame that the D3 engine, being technologically advanced but lacking certain aspects, is being ignored a little, I really don't think that id ever planned for people to 'finish their game'. Doom 3, as far as they're concerned, is 2 things:
* A Game for sales. It's succeeded in this.
* A showcase for the engine, so that other developers will license it. We won't know if they've succeeded in this for some time, until we see if there are going to be a large number of games, ala CoD, released that use it.

I think it extremely unlikely that id actually care if modders use their engine or not - they're certainly not going to be selling a fan made water shader to those who choose to buy the engine, and any decent dev shop these days should have someone who's at least competent at writing shaders.

Least, that's my opinion.

there is no way to predict the future.. of games that license the Doom3 engine.. like QUake4 ..indeed.. because game developers have a lot more resources ,a lot more people , they are usually profesionals ,that do games for a living ,not just for fun ,like the mod community.

So any other that license that engine.. can virtually change any thing in the engine ,that they need for their game.in a way that nobody will believe later is using the same D3 engine.. for example QUake4 could have HAvok physics.. if they wanted ,just like Hl2..support out of the box every single Nv40 advanced feature with complex long shaders out of the box in their OpengL game. and a very advanced AI and multiplayer capabilities.. they can change or add anything in the engine.. the diferences can be night to day.. in terms of some features.. for example RTCW support an advanced skeletal animation system for the characters.. big outdoors ,while quake3 game use a primitive ones.thats the benefit of the license. so there is no way to know how the game will be . i have my hopes very high,, since RAven already stated how much they want the game to play jus like quake3 in MP , and quake2 in its sigle player. plus outdoors and vehicles will play an important role of the game.. not merely used for the people see "something" though a window or so... the formula for for sucess if very simple ,if something works dont fix it..


update.. are screenshots of a game using a heavily upgraded unrealtournament engine.. contrary with Unrealtournament game that are mostly directx7 this one support Sm3.0 with advanced pixelshader effects ,64bit FP blending ,softshadows , and nice looking water effects .

Last edited by Nv40; 02-23-05 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 02-22-05, 04:12 PM   #79
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

why use Havok2 when the engine has a great physics engine as it is (Im pretty sure its pretty great anyhow)..
Wasnt used alot in D3 tho, Carmack thought it was gimmicky and was against it..
The upcoming addon might change that, HL2 certainly showed that people like physics in games hehe..
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Old 02-23-05, 12:40 AM   #80
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

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Originally Posted by jolle
why use Havok2 when the engine has a great physics engine as it is (Im pretty sure its pretty great anyhow)..
Wasnt used alot in D3 tho, Carmack thought it was gimmicky and was against it..
The upcoming addon might change that, HL2 certainly showed that people like physics in games hehe..

because Havok is the lite version of a Proffesional realtime Physics engine @REACTOR used by real scientist or by profesionals in the CG industry . Havok is the lite version of REACTOR.. i know Doom3 have *great physics.. but wouldn't be nice if they were a lot more than just "great" but very advanced ? but yes why havok.. lets them license the full package @REACTOR and allow in games to have realistic fluids effects ,usefull to simulate real water that deforms and divide when it interacts with solids, cloth waving in the air, Hair/cloth that moves with the air. want to do an air weapon? a water weapon? a real storm ? if it is is good enough for holywood .. it should be good enough for games . one day in the future hopefully we will see that level of realism in games.

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Old 02-23-05, 08:18 AM   #81
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

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lets them license the full package @REACTOR and allow in games to have realistic fluids effects ,usefull to simulate real water that deforms and divide when it interacts with solids, cloth waving in the air, Hair/cloth that moves with the air. want to do an air weapon? a water weapon? a real storm ? if it is is good enough for holywood .. it should be good enough for games

Only problem is getting it to run. Almost all games use fake physics to get results that look good to the eye, but are not at all realistic. Calculating fluid physics would be a huge challenge as to get true realism you'd have to go down the molecule level, but even not going as molecular as that would still be difficult on today's hardware. More and more games are starting to use hair/cloth waving, and you will see it come as a standard as it's not too expensive to do and gives a wow factor. Your other ideas are interesting, but you still get to the point where it looks just as good, if not better, if you use some unrealistic hacks than programming the real thing. I can't wait until computer hardware gets to the level where you can do all of these realistically, but that's still a ways off.
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Old 02-23-05, 09:38 AM   #82
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

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Originally Posted by Nv40
because Havok is the lite version of a Proffesional realtime Physics engine @REACTOR used by real scientist or by profesionals in the CG industry . Havok is the lite version of REACTOR.. i know Doom3 have *great physics.. but wouldn't be nice if they were a lot more than just "great" but very advanced ? but yes why havok.. lets them license the full package @REACTOR and allow in games to have realistic fluids effects ,usefull to simulate real water that deforms and divide when it interacts with solids, cloth waving in the air, Hair/cloth that moves with the air. want to do an air weapon? a water weapon? a real storm ? if it is is good enough for holywood .. it should be good enough for games . one day in the future hopefully we will see that level of realism in games.
Yeah I guess it depends on what you plan to use in the game..
But you better have some great schemes for it if you want to PAY for a external Phys engine, when there is a capable working one "out of the box"
Guess it all depends on how much CPU a developer is willing to sacrifice on the Physics system alone, and if you want fluids and cloth simulations you need some freaky HighPoly objects to do it on so it doesnt look too funky..
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Old 02-23-05, 01:51 PM   #83
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

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Originally Posted by HIWTHI
Only problem is getting it to run. Almost all games use fake physics to get results that look good to the eye, but are not at all realistic. Calculating fluid physics would be a huge challenge as to get true realism you'd have to go down the molecule level, but even not going as molecular as that would still be difficult on today's hardware. More and more games are starting to use hair/cloth waving, and you will see it come as a standard as it's not too expensive to do and gives a wow factor. Your other ideas are interesting, but you still get to the point where it looks just as good, if not better, if you use some unrealistic hacks than programming the real thing. I can't wait until computer hardware gets to the level where you can do all of these realistically, but that's still a ways off.
That's a little unfair - even most actual fluid simluations don't use 'molecular' simulation (though particle based systems do exist). Usually 'flow fields' which are essentially 3d grids of vectors or something like that're used. A chap at the graphics department of my university is looking at vorticity based smoke simulation, which could probably be extended to fluids. Impressive stuff - unfortunately a paper hasn't been published yet, so there's nothing I can actually show off.

In any case, my point is that pretty much every physical simulation can be managed with clever tricks. While I agree that soft body simulation is still not really feasible, I think it's realistic to expect realistic simulations of these things in the not too distant future. Perhaps not in the next 2 years, but research is advancing as hardware does, so there is a certain kind of convergence. Also, as vector processors become more accessible (ala 'cell'), there'll be MUCH more power for this sort of thing. Of course, you can use the GPU, but then you're cycle stealing from something that's constantly busy.

You're right though, it's all still a little ways off at least, and clever tricks will be how its done when it is done.
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Old 02-23-05, 02:42 PM   #84
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Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

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In any case, my point is that pretty much every physical simulation can be managed with clever tricks.
That is the truth about everything in gaming, or 3d represention in general really (or even any representation of any part of "reality" on computers)..
Clever tricks and hacks to make a 3d world look as close to reality you can get without acctually build it all by hand atom by atom and reinvent a simulation of the Laws of nature..
And to make it work on the Hardware capacity you have at hand, which totally excludes trying "the universe:s" approach hehe.
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