Go Back   nV News Forums > Software Forums > Gaming Central

Newegg Daily Deals

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-23-05, 03:39 PM   #85
Intel17
Is not an Intel fanboi
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Burlington, VT
Posts: 1,368
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nv40
update.. are screenshots of a game using a heavily upgraded unrealtournament engine.. contrary with Unrealtournament game that are mostly directx7 this one support Sm3.0 with advanced pixelshader effects ,64bit FP blending ,softshadows , and nice looking water effects .
SM3.0 isn't applicable in a comparison to an OpenGL game. Hell, it's all a matter of the fragment program itself. OpenGL doesn't have a lot of the limitations DX has.

Advanced pixel-shader effects? You could put them into Doom 3. All that I care about is if a game can support fragment programs or not, when comparing renderers.

64 bit FP blending? Doom 3 (Engine) has it. FarCry has it. This isn't too big of a deal.

Soft-Shadows? Heh, on a few select objects you get real-time shadow (only one shadow per-character) based on the strongest pre-computed light. Heh, sounds like it smashes Doom 3's engine or UE3.

Nice Water? It's a shader...

You see, all these "bells and whistles" mean nothing without a solid foundation. Unreal Engine with a few tacked on goodies is not going to beat Doom 3's engine. I'm sorry, there's just more to engines than this superficial bullcrap, not to mention Doom 3 can do all this stuff, yet it's not a big deal.
Intel17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-05, 04:20 PM   #86
Subtestube
Anisymbolic
 
Subtestube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 1,365
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jolle
That is the truth about everything in gaming, or 3d represention in general really (or even any representation of any part of "reality" on computers)..
Clever tricks and hacks to make a 3d world look as close to reality you can get without acctually build it all by hand atom by atom and reinvent a simulation of the Laws of nature..
And to make it work on the Hardware capacity you have at hand, which totally excludes trying "the universe:s" approach hehe.

Mmhmm... I quite agree. Having done a bit of NPR stuff to try and get rasterised pics to look like watercolours... it's ALL tricks. To be fair, Radiosity and Photon Mapping are slightly less 'trick'-y, but they're slow... very very slow.
__________________
Dr Possible: Core 2 Duo E6400 on Gigabyte GA-965P-DS4. Galaxy GeForce 7600GT. 2GB Corsair XMS 2 DDR2-6400 RAM (CL5). ATi Theatre 550 Pro. Windows XP MCE. All stored in Piano black Antec Sonata II, with a broken door.

Mobile: ASUS M2400N, Pentium M 1.5 GHz. 512 MB DDR RAM. Intel EXTREME graphics. Windows XP SP 2 / Ubuntu 5.10.

Ridiculous DOES not have an 'e' in it. It comes from "ridicule" and has less than nothing to do with the colour red.
Subtestube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-05, 04:23 PM   #87
oldsk00l
 
oldsk00l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,663
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtestube
Mmhmm... I quite agree. Having done a bit of NPR stuff to try and get rasterised pics to look like watercolours... it's ALL tricks. To be fair, Radiosity and Photon Mapping are slightly less 'trick'-y, but they're slow... very very slow.
hehehe, I am so glad this topic came up.

Until quantum computing comes along, this is impossible to do
__________________
The Adama maneuver was incredible, go watch Exodus pt 2.
oldsk00l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-05, 04:36 PM   #88
Subtestube
Anisymbolic
 
Subtestube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 1,365
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quantum computing very well may be a red herring. I've chatted with quite a few very well informed people about it, and it's seeming increasingly likely that it will only be a 'silver bullet' as it were for a miniscule number of very specific tasks.

As for Radiosity and Photon mapping, I see radiosity as MUCH less achievable, partly because solving the form factor equations is just so horrendously heinous, and isn't nearly as inherently parallel as the photon 'shooting' equations. Photon mapping is essentially a VERY clever particle system, so once you have enough vector processors (again, ala 'cell') running in parallel, there's no reason, bar bandwidth and some kind of cunning storage, at all you can't do it in 'real-time'. That still doesn't mean we'll see it soon, but I maintain that if you add a time field and a decay field to each particle, you could get by with only recalculating a small fraction of them each frame. The only issue would be that light would then take a second or two to disappear when it was supposed to. Unless, of course, you could actually link the light directly to the photons it created, and have some kind of efficient way of killing all the given photons when the light went off. As for turning the light, on, I can't see a smart way to get it lighten very quickly.
__________________
Dr Possible: Core 2 Duo E6400 on Gigabyte GA-965P-DS4. Galaxy GeForce 7600GT. 2GB Corsair XMS 2 DDR2-6400 RAM (CL5). ATi Theatre 550 Pro. Windows XP MCE. All stored in Piano black Antec Sonata II, with a broken door.

Mobile: ASUS M2400N, Pentium M 1.5 GHz. 512 MB DDR RAM. Intel EXTREME graphics. Windows XP SP 2 / Ubuntu 5.10.

Ridiculous DOES not have an 'e' in it. It comes from "ridicule" and has less than nothing to do with the colour red.
Subtestube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-05, 05:09 PM   #89
jolle
Registered User
 
jolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,804
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

yeah quantum computers do all the calculations at the same time dont they? instead of one after another..
For example the multiplication table (or what its called in english) could be done instantanious as it does all the calculations at the same time..
while what we got now does 2x2, 2x3, 2x4 etc..

That sounds to me like you could toss as detailed scenes at it as you like, full radiocity with insane amounts of photo emission etc..
But then again that is 50-100 years until that comes around in any useful form i hear..
And even them it might be like Subtestube sais, limited in usefulnes..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtestube
As for Radiosity and Photon mapping, I see radiosity as MUCH less achievable, partly because solving the form factor equations is just so horrendously heinous, and isn't nearly as inherently parallel as the photon 'shooting' equations.
There we are again with "hacks", its just a question of time until someone hacks up a trick that will work fundamentally different and be fast enough for realtime, but offer a similar result as real Radiocity, IE some color bleeding and stuff to make it "look" like radiocity..
__________________
Q6700, Abit X38 QuadGT, 8Gb (4x 2GB) OCZ Reaper DDR2 1066MHz, Gainward GTX 285 1Gb, X-Fi XtremeMusic
jolle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-05, 06:44 PM   #90
HIWTHI
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

I've seen some impressive water demonstrations, but they still don't come to that believable point. Everyone loves to talk about photo-realistic graphics, but most gamers fail to see the connection between looks and behavior. I'm happy we got into this as well and see it as an increasingly discussed topic during the next few years. The question will soon be, well it looks like it, but doesn't behave like it.

The few radiosity demos and other advanced demos I've seen work only in a certain small room with certain parameters set. For games we will have to really expand upon this, because developers will not go back to be restricted to small, cramped rooms for their games. Were a ways off, but I expect to see it in my lifetime, because weve recognized our limitations and realize what we have to accomplish to achieve these effects.
HIWTHI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-05, 02:54 AM   #91
jolle
Registered User
 
jolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,804
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Its the same with the water simulation demos, the ones Ive seen is just a highpoly plane..
You might not want to sacrifice that amount of polys on just a water surface in a game, and if its too lowpoly there isnt going to be enough detail for it to be really useful..
There are some nice ways of simulating water surfaces with pixelshading but that doesnt affect the actual geometry of the water surface, but its prolly what they will stick with for a while now..
Maybe some VS deformations in some cases of open ocean in "boating" games where there is pretty much JUST water and a few boats.. (Yaaargh! avast! and so forth)
__________________
Q6700, Abit X38 QuadGT, 8Gb (4x 2GB) OCZ Reaper DDR2 1066MHz, Gainward GTX 285 1Gb, X-Fi XtremeMusic
jolle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-05, 02:13 AM   #92
pat777
NV420
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 446
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
SM3.0 isn't applicable in a comparison to an OpenGL game. Hell, it's all a matter of the fragment program itself. OpenGL doesn't have a lot of the limitations DX has.
What is a fragment program? I you saying the fragment program is the cake while shaders are the icing?
pat777 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 02-28-05, 05:55 AM   #93
Intel17
Is not an Intel fanboi
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Burlington, VT
Posts: 1,368
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pat777
What is a fragment program? I you saying the fragment program is the cake while shaders are the icing?
A fragment program is a "pixel shader". Also sometimes reffered to as a "fragment shader" because it shaders per fragment (which is a pixel).

Remember, a pixel shader (in DX speak) is an actual program which does per-pixel computations, and is done in the programmable pipeline.

Also, a vertex program is a "vertex shader".
Intel17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-05, 10:25 PM   #94
Nv40
Agent-Fx
 
Nv40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: everywhere
Posts: 2,216
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
There's nothing wrong with the Doom 3 Engine, it's mainly the tools and the pre-shipped content that blow.

Doom3 engine have *MANY* things gamedevelopers call wrong..even John carmack calls them ->FLAWS and Limitations. already posted in thins thread his comments .. things that in his own words he *obviously* needs to fix in their game. the engine have potential,, its a good step in the right direction.. but still is an engine based around the capabilities of geforce1/3 hardware. its not a bad engine..but neither is a re-volutionary one.. its just an evolutionary engine with many good things and with many wrong things ,limitations in some other areas. that if JC dont fix them ,it will be outdated in less than a year. limitations already explained since the first post.

most likely JC have a new engine in beta stage right now..that takes advantage of all the NV40 next generation features.. for their next game.. but the things you seems to not understand is that *IS NOT* the same D3 engine finished 4 year ago .the engine used by the D3 mod community today was finished in ~97% many years ago.. when the best hardware was a geforce3. the argument that "if not a problem" because you can code whatever you want.. is valid for thousands of others games outhere that developers allows their games to be modded ,is valid for anyone doing his own engine.. they can also code whatever thing they want. and do the games they want..Thats why other games engines exist. and today carmack game engine its not "Doom3 engine" its not the same thing but another thing. but that he could choose to call the same way . even though it migh have a completely new renderer..Physics engine, AI and network code.

Last edited by Nv40; 03-02-05 at 11:03 PM.
Nv40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-05, 11:23 PM   #95
HIWTHI
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Since I view Carmack as one of the best, if not the best, graphics programmer in the biz I enjoy listening to his QuakeCon interviews. Today, before enjoying a jog, I put one in my Ipod Shuffle and then proceeded to listen to the QuakeCon 2004 interview. Carmack is a visionary and is always looking forward, which is evident in his plans for his next engine. The next engine will not be built from scratch, but will most likely use parts of the Doom 3 engine. Of course he said the same thing about the Doom 3 engine so it may well turn out to be built from the ground up. The renderer is being changed out, and one of the biggest differences is the shift from stencil shadows to shadow buffers.
HIWTHI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-05, 02:27 AM   #96
Knot3D
Registered User
 
Knot3D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: ShadowMosesIsland
Posts: 734
Default Re: DEvmaster.net article Hl2 vs D3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIWTHI
The renderer is being changed out, and one of the biggest differences is the shift from stencil shadows to shadow buffers.

....basically..., what Splinter Cell 3 has now, right ?
__________________
AMD X2 4800, Asus A8N32sli-D, Corsair Twinx 2Gb PC3500LLpro, Asus X1900XTX & 2 WD Raptors
Knot3D is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Regression with 295.33 and GeForce GT 240 maro NVIDIA Linux 16 06-29-12 06:47 PM
Valve's Source engine to power upcoming animated film News Archived News Items 0 06-10-12 09:20 PM
Gorgeous Unreal Engine 4 brings direct programming, indirect lighting News Archived News Items 0 06-08-12 09:20 PM
May 24 Webinar: How Do You Make Grid Engine Faster? News Archived News Items 0 05-22-12 06:30 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2014, nV News.