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Old 02-08-05, 01:12 PM   #25
Ninjaman09
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msxyz
They probably adapted UT2004 default skeleton to HL2 characters. That's why they look inferior. Other than this the Source engine does not have enough "oomph" to be defined "superior" to the Unreal engine.

I wonder why people are so hyped about the source engine. A few shadered surfaces every once in a while don't make a superior engine. And honestly, I'm quite tired of games where when -upon walking close to a wall- all you'll see is a blurred pixellated surface. Unreal, back 1998, showed how better look surfaces with micro-texturing on them. It's a lame, fast and simple technique. Yet only a handful of games employ it.
Agreed, the Unreal engine has always been extremely impressive from many standpoints. While some of the Source engine modules like the facial animation system and Havok are very nice, from a purely graphical standpoint it is a subpar engine. I still like it though.
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Old 02-08-05, 02:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

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Originally Posted by nutcrackr
What's the deal with engines competing against each other or using content from other games to prove something or another? Whoever is doing it stop doing it

damn good point.
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Old 02-08-05, 04:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Killahsin: have you ever tried using UnrealEd to a certain degree ? What you said are extra features that can be added and not part of the core engine... The Unreal Engine 2 had Karma (in game physics), Speedtree, Matinée (talking about making real easy movie sequences) right from the start yet they're merely plugins. You could associate sound to materials even in Unreal 1. The shader system is less advanced mainly because it was added too late in the development and it's used only to collapse multitexturing operations.

Unreal Engine 2 can move 8+ millions polygons on GeForce2 class of hardware. Demo levels with 200000 polygons per frame have already been done back in 2002 as showcase for their technology. The mix of pre-computed radiosity and real time lighting is very fast and of has excellent quality. HL2, Vampire: Bloodlines and CS:S looks quite dull and flat in comparison.

Back in 2001, when the Unreal 2 "E3 demo" leaked, I ran it on a GeForce2MX and those early levels already showed some incredible detail (not to mention their size) that HL2 can match only today, nearly 4 years after and on much better machines.
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Old 02-08-05, 05:31 PM   #28
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Yes, i use unrealed quite frequently actually =)

Karma is not attached to the material but scripted to the individual brushes, unlike in hammer/source. I am not refering to associating sound to a material but rather materials having set sounds for what materials they are already. Of course you can always add a sound or change a sound, but by default if u make a wood texture and designate it wood, the sound and physics properties are defauted to wood action wood sound.

What I am refering to is simply the ease of it all being in one package already done for you. While unreal 2 was nice it was not a drastic leap forward to what they did with unreal1.5. I'm not debating whether or not unreal 2 2.5 2.x is a good engine or not or whether back when unreal 2 was released did it look good. I was just simply refering to what it can do much easier than any other engine/editor. That isn't really a debate to be honest. If you use both frequently you would agree. While unrealed is much easier to use, hammer is much more versatile when using it for source. Alot of the scripting you needed to do previously and still need to do in unrealed you no longer need to do in hammer, and if you do most of it usually has an example for you, or a gui interface to make it much easier. Of course you can always get right into the raw scritping. The point in what i was saying is source just has alot of out of the box advancements not only in the visual department but also in the ease of use department. I'm not here to debate whether unreal 2.0 was/is a great engine, i was just listing facts as to what source has does on the fly that unreal 2.0 did not.

As for unreal 3 that will be a whole different story.

So to adress your point directly all the things you considered extra features that can be added and are not part of the core itself is incorrect. Valve has made the features i listed directly part of the core of source. Where as in unrealed 'you mess with karma', in hammer you mess with material properties.
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Old 02-08-05, 09:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Here is another one...




when it comes to graphics between both games UTk2k4 can re-create almost anything of Hl2.. and people will not be able to say which game is ....unless you tell them ,if both were done using the same art . is all texture and polys.

http://www.pcgamemods.com/10087/s/15/
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Last edited by Nv40; 02-08-05 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 02-09-05, 05:58 AM   #30
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msxyz
Killahsin: have you ever tried using UnrealEd to a certain degree ? What you said are extra features that can be added and not part of the core engine... The Unreal Engine 2 had Karma (in game physics), Speedtree, Matinée (talking about making real easy movie sequences) right from the start yet they're merely plugins. You could associate sound to materials even in Unreal 1. The shader system is less advanced mainly because it was added too late in the development and it's used only to collapse multitexturing operations.

Unreal Engine 2 can move 8+ millions polygons on GeForce2 class of hardware. Demo levels with 200000 polygons per frame have already been done back in 2002 as showcase for their technology. The mix of pre-computed radiosity and real time lighting is very fast and of has excellent quality. HL2, Vampire: Bloodlines and CS:S looks quite dull and flat in comparison.

Back in 2001, when the Unreal 2 "E3 demo" leaked, I ran it on a GeForce2MX and those early levels already showed some incredible detail (not to mention their size) that HL2 can match only today, nearly 4 years after and on much better machines.
Yeah, I'm going to second this. I am an Unreal Engine 2 user in terms of modding, and it's much more flexible and feature packed than what UT2004 showed us, plus it doesn't have some of the limitations of Source.

For example, since Unreal Engine 2 is portal based, it can handle MUCH larger areas than the BSP based Source Engine. This is a fact.

Also, in terms of geometrical detail, it can handle many, many polygons of static meshes made in Maya, 3DSMax, with little slowdown. I think Source can do the same, but I don't know the exact limitations.

Next, I think that the tools are just so much better, and easier to use, compared to Hammer. (this is an opinion)

Finally, I think in terms of rendering, Source may have an edge in shaders, but the size of the levels is a pretty big constraint.
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Old 02-09-05, 07:27 AM   #31
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Ahem,

Since I have been coding in the Unreal Engine space since the first Unreal mod of ours (about 5 year ago)I have some input to add. I love the Unreal Engine. However I have also looked at the source eninge. And sorry to say as good as the current public unreal engine is, it is a bit behind source in some areas and a bit a head in others. But your trying to compare two different things here. The unreal engine was designed to be very flexible but its still a DX7 base engine. One could argure that source is DX9 based engnie. The only DX8 effects they use in Ut2k3/4 are to help callospe rendering of Terain info into 1 pass. So there is no doubt that source has the much more advanced render. The physic are more tighly intergrated in source esp the network code. I have lost many nights sleep trying to get decent karma replication in order to pull of some effects in ut2k4 only to end up dropping them as it was just too entensive network wise. There are other differences as well. And please not trying to say one is better than the others. And for now I plan to stay with the current Unreal Engine because I know well what it can do, and what it can not do so I can work with in those bounds
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Old 02-09-05, 08:02 AM   #32
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Ehh, Still-motion screenshots always look better than when they're actually moving..like, say....Killzone or SWAT 4, you could even say Doom 3, some of the stuff in doom3 didn't look nearly as cool as it did in some of the screenshots, yea they look nice in SSes, but when you're actually playing the game, well...I have to say they don't look that impressive, some of the movements are glitchy and objects aren't that impressive, when you're actually seeing them in motion, you begin to see the flaws in the character and evironment models.

HL2's lip-syncing, and bone structure on the faces of the characters is crazy, take some time (directed to modders) and try to lip sync and get the facial animation(s) out of a UT2k4 character. The characters in UT2k4 can only re-create simple mouth movements and I'm pretty sure hardly any facial animations. The textures are basically just re-scans of the skin and cloth textures from HL2, that's the only reason that UT2k4 chars look good. In motion though, they don't move any different from the Juggernauts.

And UT2k4's physics (Not really a fan of Karma) are really "flimsy", you can see that when you shoot someone and they jerk everywhere and do like 100 tumbles before stopping, it's like no matter what size the person is, they all have the same body physics, which is about the same as a <= 100lb person with rubber bones.

Since I'm on the topic of physics, you could go on about the weapon physics. Recoil in UT2k4 is horrible, you can't really jump up and down constantly and be able to spam rocket launchers or lightning guns and expect to hit your target as easy as you can in UT2k4. At least in HL2, it takes into account that you're actually JUMPING if you try to shoot a gun while you're jumping and adjusts the weapon recoil accordingly.

Another topic involving physics: Environments. I haven't seen hardly anything use a physics engine for the reason of making the environment have almost everything movable like HL2. UT2k4 I haven't seen much of that, in fact, I don't think I've seen any.
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Old 02-09-05, 09:06 AM   #33
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

The main reason why physics have been left out of Ut2003/4 is because they caused problems to users with slow connections. There are a few ragdoll animations but that's all. Since UT2003 is mainly an online game it was the right decision.

Painkiller had to cut them out in multiplayer for the same reason. Too bad they didn't track the problem during beta testing and they adrerssed it only in a patch.
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Old 02-09-05, 12:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

I'd like to bring up one good point - The Unreal community is simply awesome.
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Old 02-09-05, 12:03 PM   #35
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msxyz
The main reason why physics have been left out of Ut2003/4 is because they caused problems to users with slow connections. There are a few ragdoll animations but that's all. Since UT2003 is mainly an online game it was the right decision.

Errr all the vehicles in ONS are drive by the karama phsics values so thats not really true when you say that they left out physics. It just trying to replicate that info to all the client that kills your bandwidth
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Old 02-09-05, 01:48 PM   #36
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Default Re: which game is this ...Hl2 or UTk4 ?

Source engine is trash people...
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