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Old 02-11-05, 11:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

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Originally Posted by jAkUp
I dunno... I don't really like the idea of scabaility. I mean, how long is it gonna take for companies to finally drop the geforce4mx support??!! It doesnt even support PS 1.1! IMO, we would have better looking games, etc. If they could concentrate more on the med- high end range. An nvidia 5700/9600 and above is what they should target IMO. I mean, they cost like what $100??!!

Back in the old games it seemed as if games were more on the cutting edge of hardware. We didn't need AA/AF. Nowadays, our hardware is so much faster than the games, we force AA/AF. Sometimes in the computer industry, you need to FORCE an upgrade. Thats the only way we are gonna get rid of CD-Roms, and thats the only way we are gonna have next-gen engines.
You are going to get your wish becasue the Unreal3 engine is completely dropping support for anything without PS 2.0. They say they can code the engine a lot faster if they drop legacy support.
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Old 02-12-05, 09:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

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Originally Posted by nutcrackr
I remember quake 3 arena running ok on a 2mb onboard card.
Wait what? Quake 3 was the first game to require a 3d card with an opengl subsystem; if it didn't have one it would refuse to run, and the only inexpensive opengl compatible cards available at the time were made by nvidia or 3dfx. It also required a minimum of 8 megs of vram.
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Old 02-12-05, 01:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

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Originally Posted by jonk
You are going to get your wish becasue the Unreal3 engine is completely dropping support for anything without PS 2.0. They say they can code the engine a lot faster if they drop legacy support.
Awesome. I'm getting sick of having my system held back by "Gamers" with GF4MXs. Dip****s.
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Old 02-12-05, 01:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

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Originally Posted by Vagrant Zero
Awesome. I'm getting sick of having my system held back by "Gamers" with GF4MXs. Dip****s.
QFT
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Old 02-12-05, 04:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

I think a GF3 would be a good cutoff for modern games, and some have already been using that as a standard (DX:IW, Thief 3, Prince of Persia, etc.). I think the 5700 is a pretty bad place to have the support start, basically that would mean developers would REALLY have to cut down on the DX9 effects to get it to run well since FX cards before the 5900 were pretty terrible with them, in which case they might as well just go back to using PS1.1 and support the GF3 as well. Also, most DX9 effects can be scaled back to DX8 without too much trouble. Basically, I think the game support should be split into the following groups:

SM3.0 level (6x00 and future ATI cards) - high end, next gen games that are based on UE3

Basic pixel shader level (GF3/8500 and up) - good mid-range solution that allows developers to get the most out of the technology without having to scale too far back, and the option to use DX9 effects for the higher-end cards in this catagory. See DX:IW, Thief 3

Basic bumpmapping and Hardware T&L level (GF1/2/MX and all Radeons up to the 7500) - fairly low end, really adds development time onto the games and usually looks really bad on low-end hardware. see Halo, Farcry.

Basic 3d rendering support (Intel Integrated, TNT, Voodoo series) - really bad cards by today's standards, but there are still enough of them out there that developers seem to support them. See Half-life 2, Serious Sam.
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Old 02-12-05, 05:15 PM   #18
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

I can't believe people claim that developers supporting older GFX are setting there newer hardware back, all i have to say is source engine and doom 3 engine both support older hardware and these's are the mac daddy engines as it stands today, are they holding back?
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Old 02-12-05, 05:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

I guess performance could be better in those two engines if they were optimized better (Though D3 engine does a very good job)

Look at Riddick. Game looks great and on my system have better fps then both D3 and source engine.

I support the idea that game developers need to drop old hardware support.
But that's going to stir up alot of confusion and anger.
You guys should have seen the Konami support forum when Silent Hill 3 was released (requerd Gf3 or better)
Lots of gf4mx users bought the game as they didnt know better ....
It was completly another userbase there then it is here. Here most guys have very recent hardware but on that forum the dominant gfx hardware seemd to be Gf4mx ...
Perhaps because a lot of retail puters had Gf4mx preinstalled (like hp, Dell etc etc)
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Old 02-12-05, 06:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

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Originally Posted by dpagan
I can't believe people claim that developers supporting older GFX are setting there newer hardware back, all i have to say is source engine and doom 3 engine both support older hardware and these's are the mac daddy engines as it stands today, are they holding back?
Yes, they are. For one, the lighting engine in Half-life 2 is attrocious. It's barely an improvement on HL1, it doesn't even support dynamic shadows and the dynamic lights are extremely problematic. It is, quite simply, a DX7 game with DX8/9 effects thrown in on top of it. It's obvious they weren't really targeting the high-end specifically when it came to the graphics, it actually reminds me of Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness (one of the first games that supported DX9 effects, but hardly a "DX9 class" game). For Doom 3...what exactly do you mean by "support older hardware"? They made the game for GF3-class cards, had they attempted to support anything lower (even the GF4mx was a stretch, and with that card most of the effects were turned off) they probably wouldn't have integrated the lighting into the game as well as they did.

It's not just the extra time that it takes to make the games work on older hardware, it's also the cutting down of gameplay elements that tie into the graphics. Lets say Thief 3 was designed for a Geforce 2-level card and allowed the shadows to be disabled (since the effect seems to rely on pixel shaders): what about all the gameplay elements that revolve around using dynamic objects to shadow you? How would they be able to integrated the shadows into the gameplay like they did if they were supporting hardware that didn't allow the effect? Same with non-graphic effects: what if Half-life 2 had gone one step farther, and made it so that effects like physics could be disabled in order to reduce the CPU requirements (since they are comparatively high compared to the GPU requirements)? They would've had to cut every physics-related gameplay element from the game, which obviously would've made the game much worse. It's not the cutting back effects that make supporting older hardware a bad thing, rather it's the need to design the game around the lowest common denominator.
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Old 02-12-05, 06:25 PM   #21
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

I can't believe you guys are suggesting devs cut out older hardware completely! Do you want PC gaming to go further into a hole? Consoles have it sweet because the average joe bloe doesn't have to worry about graphics cards and cpus he just knows that his system works with this game.

Shunning out geforce mx users like DX:IW and Thief 3 did is beyond stupid, go play those games again - it doesn't even push the limits of high end cards! Developers need to work at making very backwards compatible games that work with graphics settings down while giving the latest and greatest to new computer owners. I have to say source is a step toward this. While I see that it will cost more and take longer to develop this support for older cards I think will pay off as people will no longer be leaving PCs because their computer doesn't run squat anymore and moving to xbox2 or ps3.
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Old 02-12-05, 06:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

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Originally Posted by nutcrackr
I can't believe you guys are suggesting devs cut out older hardware completely! Do you want PC gaming to go further into a hole? Consoles have it sweet because the average joe bloe doesn't have to worry about graphics cards and cpus he just knows that his system works with this game.

Shunning out geforce mx users like DX:IW and Thief 3 did is beyond stupid, go play those games again - it doesn't even push the limits of high end cards! Developers need to work at making very backwards compatible games that work with graphics settings down while giving the latest and greatest to new computer owners. I have to say source is a step toward this. While I see that it will cost more and take longer to develop this support for older cards I think will pay off as people will no longer be leaving PCs because their computer doesn't run squat anymore and moving to xbox2 or ps3.
i see you understand where i'm coming from, i love gaming on my pc compared to gaming on consoles but upgrading my pc just to play a game that if lucky will have at least 15 hours of game play is just crazy, i've seen games on consoles that look as good or better than many pc games that require an upgrade to play and i'm talking about a system that has 32 to 64 mb of system memory with a 4 to 3 year old GFX tech. Consoles life 5 years pc's life span depends on the next best graphics engine, like i mentioned earlier once the next gen consoles come out, the pc might see it's self in deep trouble, and believe me i hope it doesn't cause i love playing on my pc, but my pockets can't keep up with the next gen game around the corner, by the way the graphics in DXIW and thief3 Sucked, and i was playing them on my 6800gt for ref, i just think that company has a lot to learn when it comes to programing
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Old 02-12-05, 06:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

Having games with really high requirements will shut out over 50% of the gaming market probably. This would lead to less games being made on the PC because less people will buy it. Some of you people are just ridiculous. You have to think about consequences.

And that Edge guy. WTF? The lightning engine in HL2 is attrocious? Only little improved over HL1? Are you smoking or something? I suggest you go back and play HL1 and then come back. Just plain ridiculous. Anyone else agree?
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Old 02-12-05, 07:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: impressive hl2 engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpagan
I can't believe people claim that developers supporting older GFX are setting there newer hardware back, all i have to say is source engine and doom 3 engine both support older hardware and these's are the mac daddy engines as it stands today, are they holding back?
Crappy ass textures? No more then a few enemies on screen at once. Low Poly characters?

Um gee...ya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustangSVT
Having games with really high requirements will shut out over 50% of the gaming market probably. This would lead to less games being made on the PC because less people will buy it. Some of you people are just ridiculous. You have to think about consequences.
Or it would force these people to upgrade off 4 generation old hardware. D3 caused a stir of upgraditis.
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