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| View Poll Results: Should NVIDIA support the development of a fast Linux kernel graphics interface? | |||
| Yes, take leading role together with other graphics vendors |
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26 | 57.78% |
| Yes, but only if hardware-specific drivers are GPL |
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11 | 24.44% |
| Yes, but only under the dictate of an independent OpenSorce project |
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4 | 8.89% |
| I don't think another Linux graphics layer is needed |
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5 | 11.11% |
| Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#1 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 27
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As many posts in this forum show, it seems like the Linux graphics architecture is still a source of trouble for most users.
An important issue specific to Linux is the co-existence of different, hardware-dependent graphics driver architectures at the same time on the same hardware. The most important of them are the X Window System (X.org) and the various framebuffer console drivers (fbdev). There are, however, many more solutions to get Linux to display graphics, like KGI/GGI (seems dead now), libSVGA, commercial X-servers, ... A unified, generic, UI-independent, but maximum-performance graphics architecture would eliminate a lot of problems currently discussed in this thread. We request and encourage that NVIDIA take an active, leading role in the specification and implementation of such a graphics interface, because NVIDIA have already shown that they take Linux as a graphics platform seriously. Joint efforts in the Open Source Communitiy and with commercial hardware ad software vendors can make this vision come true. Vote for this petition right here! Attached is a diagram showing a proposal for a graphics architecture that is both generic and performant while maintaining backwards compatibility with fbdev/fbcon from the applications perspective. It also tries to limit kernel-space implementations to a minimum. To be a bit more specific about why and how I think it is necessary to rework the Linux graphics architecture:
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#2 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Blue Mtns. Australia
Posts: 12
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This is a great idea. But what makes you think KGI or LibGGI are dead? The GGI Project is still active today. I suggest you check out the LibGGI Home Page. Also KGI is still going, although somewhat slowly on Linux side, and antrik is working on a Hurd port. Both projects remain active on the FreeNode IRC network check 'em out :-)
KGI4BSD has slowed in the new year, but made some major progress last year. I was running LibGGI demos under KGI on FreeBSD-5.3 with a Ti4800 using VESA. Results were awesome. I would love it if NVIDIA took an interest in KGI. I think a unified high performance graphics architecture is an awesome idea, and KGI is the way...if more people get involved. KGI supports Linux and FreeBSD already with interchangable drivers. |
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#3 |
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gentoo ~x86_64 user
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Germania
Posts: 213
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Uhm, why do you want an unaccel. fb driver? An accel. would be better, isn't it?
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#4 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 783
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Quote:
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#5 |
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gentoo ~x86_64 user
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Germania
Posts: 213
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No, I think it makes more sense to accelearte the fb driver and just make X to use this. I heard Solaris or some other *nix does it this way for some cards.
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#6 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 104
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I think this change (depicted in the mklemm's diagram) should make the things easier for the driver developpers. This should make the thinegs easier for the X server developpers too: they don't have to focus on the drivers anymore! So, I agree!
__________________
Hardware: Dell Inspiron 2650, P4M @ 1.8 GHz, chipset i845, 512 MB RAM, nVidia Geforce 2 Go with 16 MB RAM, 20 GB HDD. Software: BIOS A10 (3.11.01.52.AB video BIOS), Fedora Core 4, Kernel 2.6.12-1.1398_FC4, Xorg 6.8.2, NVIDIA 7667 drivers. |
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#7 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 783
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Quote:
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#8 |
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gentoo ~x86_64 user
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Germania
Posts: 213
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Well, put the lacking functions into the X11 layer, where is the problem? This is the correcty way of modularization.
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#9 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 94
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never happen.
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#10 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 27
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Quote:
What I wanted to show in the diagram is, that we need a minimally accelerated fbdev driver for the sake of system stability and ease of implementation, but additionally need another kernel-based interface (like DRI ord the "nvidia" module today), that can INTERACT with the fbdev and can implement all the nice features we want today, like RENDER acceleration, OpenGL direct rendering, ACPI, Multihead ... These two modules (fbdev and the new DRI-replacement) should form a unity, so the hardware state (like video modes etc.) can be managed by the fbdev driver alone, without anything bypassing it and messing around with the hardware on its own. Applications then could either use functionality provided by both modules or only basic fbdev functionality. Server administrators, for example, could just build the basic fbdev driver into their kernels and prevent the DRI-replacement module from loading on their machines, because they don't need anything accelerated. It has turned out that basic fbdev support is relatively easy to implement, but when it comes to acceleration features, drivers stay in an EXPERIMENTAL or unstable state for many development cycles. This is true for X drivers, too. By seperating the two aspects, development will be easier, and by seperating the X layer from the hardware driver layer, X Server developers won't have to worry about hardware specific things anymore. |
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#11 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 27
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Quote:
The kernel developers are always concerned about simplicity and stability of the standard kernel, and fbdev is just simpler than KGI. Now, I think we have to get along with this decision, and so the proposal is based on the current fbdev concept. Sorry for declaring the KGI/GGI project as dead . I see that at least GGI is still active today, but it seems that GGI has changed its targets from being a common low-level graphics library to a platform-independent, higher-level solution that itself makes use of other low-level driver systems, as well as running on top an an X server, while IMHO it just should be the other way round! Also, I miss direct support for technologies like OpenGL in the KGI/GGI approach, although concepts like the KGI "display list" interface are somewhat similar.Last edited by mklemm; 02-23-05 at 05:10 AM. |
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#12 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 27
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Quote:
Last edited by mklemm; 02-23-05 at 04:33 AM. |
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