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Old 03-03-05, 12:47 PM   #13
Intel17
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeero1978
...i need to see outside environments with vegetation using doom3 engine...
That's just a matter of an artist creating a bunch of trees and other "outdoor" assets. The engine controls how that data is displayed in the world.

Doom 3's levels sizes arent a problem, there really isn't a limit (well there is, but nobody's actually found it) and you could make an outdoor area as big as you want.

The problem is, you'd have to model terrain by hand, trees, grass, water etc... This would take a long time to do, but it would look amazing.

CryEngine makes it slightly easier by making default levels a large sea, and you build terrain. Problem is, they have to do lots of hacks to get indoor areas.
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Old 03-03-05, 12:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
That's just a matter of an artist creating a bunch of trees and other "outdoor" assets. The engine controls how that data is displayed in the world.

Doom 3's levels sizes arent a problem, there really isn't a limit (well there is, but nobody's actually found it) and you could make an outdoor area as big as you want.

The problem is, you'd have to model terrain by hand, trees, grass, water etc... This would take a long time to do, but it would look amazing.

CryEngine makes it slightly easier by making default levels a large sea, and you build terrain. Problem is, they have to do lots of hacks to get indoor areas.
And it would run like crap. I dont see the Doom 3 engine being able to create levels as large as Farcry...
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Old 03-03-05, 01:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

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Originally Posted by egbtmagus
And it would run like crap. I dont see the Doom 3 engine being able to create levels as large as Farcry...
Hmm, my next experiment I suppose! Just gotta learn DoomEdit.

in Doom 3 the game, FPS is actually higher outdoors than indoors.
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Old 03-03-05, 01:18 PM   #16
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Cheers Intel! Nice to see some actual info about this. As I've repeatedly said in threads regarding engines:

It's impossible to really know how well an engine functions, without actually experimenting with its performance under various conditions. Personal experience is really the only way to know.
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Old 03-03-05, 01:27 PM   #17
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel17
That's just a matter of an artist creating a bunch of trees and other "outdoor" assets. The engine controls how that data is displayed in the world.

Doom 3's levels sizes arent a problem, there really isn't a limit (well there is, but nobody's actually found it) and you could make an outdoor area as big as you want.

The problem is, you'd have to model terrain by hand, trees, grass, water etc... This would take a long time to do, but it would look amazing.

CryEngine makes it slightly easier by making default levels a large sea, and you build terrain. Problem is, they have to do lots of hacks to get indoor areas.
There is another note here: The CryEngine supports and regularly uses judicious LOD scaling. D3 will probably *not* be able to cope with as large areas *if* it doesn't do similar LOD scaling (which it could well do). Just bear in mind how much geometry would actually have to be rasterized if all those trees in the distance weren't just a few polys. Now add shadow polys, and you've got some serious issues. It might pay to find out exactly what methods of LOD scaling the D3 engine supports and how to control them - i.e.,
* whether you need to tell it to do it
* whether you need to provide other model versions
* whether it just does polygonal joining for you (probably won't look as good).
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Old 03-03-05, 02:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtestube
There is another note here: The CryEngine supports and regularly uses judicious LOD scaling. D3 will probably *not* be able to cope with as large areas *if* it doesn't do similar LOD scaling (which it could well do). Just bear in mind how much geometry would actually have to be rasterized if all those trees in the distance weren't just a few polys. Now add shadow polys, and you've got some serious issues. It might pay to find out exactly what methods of LOD scaling the D3 engine supports and how to control them - i.e.,
* whether you need to tell it to do it
* whether you need to provide other model versions
* whether it just does polygonal joining for you (probably won't look as good).
I'll do some Doom 3 investigating in a bit...

Also, in FarCry I did another experiment because of this post...

I told it to LOD at some really bizzare distance (effectively killing the LOD), and then judged performance in the standard game.

It hurt the performance quite a bit on my 9800 pro, but not to the point of being unplayable.

Now with Doom 3, I'm betting outdoor areas would cost much more without LOD due to the fact that all lighting/shading is per-pixel and calculated real-time, along with the shadows being calculated in real-time as well.

While theoretically Doom 3 can handle outdoor areas (hell, i've made extremely large maps, and the engine handled it quite well with good fps), I think that you'd need at least a 9800 pro to have FarCry-esque detail in the outdoor area, combined with the lighting and shadowing, but it could be done.

Also, I was testing the polygon count limit of Doom 3, and contrary to popular belief that "the engine can't do lot's of polys", I made a 3 million polygon mesh in Gmax and exported it to Doom 3. While it wasn't the best in terms of performance, it worked without error.

Hmm, I guess all these "limitations" don't exist then!

I'll probably learn enough DoomEdit tonight to make a large outdoor area with lots of arbitrary detail.
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Old 03-03-05, 05:38 PM   #19
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtestube
There is another note here: The CryEngine supports and regularly uses judicious LOD scaling. D3 will probably *not* be able to cope with as large areas *if* it doesn't do similar LOD scaling (which it could well do). Just bear in mind how much geometry would actually have to be rasterized if all those trees in the distance weren't just a few polys. Now add shadow polys, and you've got some serious issues. It might pay to find out exactly what methods of LOD scaling the D3 engine supports and how to control them - i.e.,
* whether you need to tell it to do it
* whether you need to provide other model versions
* whether it just does polygonal joining for you (probably won't look as good).
Far away trees in Far Cry aren't polys, they're sprites. That's how FC gets away with so much on the screen at once.
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Old 03-03-05, 07:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

I wouldn't say it works GREAT. It works, working great would involve me not noticing that they're sprites.

As for framerate sucking, wait a few months, new vid card generation comes out, problem solved, and you get kickass visuals. Sometimes games need to say screw current hardware and do what they have to do.
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Old 03-03-05, 11:18 PM   #21
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Engines don't have poly restrictions, which is why it's dumb that people like to compare how many polys a game engine can support. Doom 3 doesn't have limitless outdoor areas, and won't compare to FarCry's outdoor LOD detail without a lot of additional programming. Just trying to create terrain in Doom 3 isn't that easy, but the engine isn't optimized for outdoor areas like Crytek's engine is. Quake 4 is going to show off outdoor areas, but from what I've read they've had their own problems getting those to work. Don't expect FarCry quality from Quake 4, but then again that's not what the game is trying to achieve. Creating a huge outdoor area with a viewing distance of up to 2km is a huge achievement, but then feeling that world with vegetation, enemies, vehicles, destructible objects, and amazing water effects is even more amazing. Here are some articles about the engine:

http://www.newworldvideogames.com/pl...0Part%201.plan

http://www.newworldvideogames.com/pl...0Part%202.plan
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Old 03-03-05, 11:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

There is not such a thing like "outdoors" or "indoors" for a game engine

"outdoors" are merely a bigger indoor box map with a higher ceiling.. with a 2d background as "sky" in most games / So unless CRytek free tools in the SDK are only limited to only edit already made maps.. then there is no reason for outdoors to be limited to *just one* lighting technique .. like the limitation DOom3 already have.

Farcry engine support realtime PErpixel lighting just like DOom3 ,but also Lightmaps and shadowmaps.. last time i tested Farcry it use REaltime lighting in "outdoors" for the Jeeps..and the vehicles., and dynamic objects. when you switch to *thirdpersonview*. all other things uses lightmaps.. what IDsoftware they swiched for their next engine.


Stencil volume shadows are always hardedge.. Whether is DOom3 ,Farcry ,Fear or any other game. The lego shadows in farcry in "outdoors" Geforces cards are just very simple HArdware shadowmaps.. exactly like the ones used in 3dmark2005.. PCF shadows.. the lack of realism is not the fault of the technique ,but that the developers are using too few samples maybe 1-2 for their game ,this is a performance optimization. Unreal3 should be using like 16 samples at 2000x2000 resolutions for their shadows.

Doom3 use hacks for shadows.. too.. and many many times.. there is not a single Doom3 level without static shadows in doom3..whenever you see very soft shadows in doom3.. they are 100% static .examples of those are ...Fences, shadows of fans in the ceiling.. light through winodws.. jail cage.. etc..a very simple technique used by many games ,they are projected black textures ,that looks like if they were shadows ,but there arent // what they do is do project a black texture (or the color you want) in the surfaces. wich is not the realtime stuff Idsoftware was bragging so much. idsoftware simply never told the whole truth and overhyped their engine.. and it ended being 15% of what they told it was..

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Old 03-03-05, 11:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

If Doom3's shadow system is 15% [I wish I could randomly pull out percentages from my anus, it would help with accounting] then CryTek and Source are batting in the negatives.
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Old 03-03-05, 11:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: CryEngine shadowing investigation...

Nv40, you have no idea what you are talking about do you? It's sad that you think indoor and outdoor engines are the same. Just stop making up stuff and getting into conversations where you have no idea what everyone is talking about.
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