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Old 03-17-05, 08:55 PM   #13
skirst
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Quote:
Originally Posted by joffe
Tonight I experienced my closest contact with nVIDIA ever. I went to download a Windows driver and lo, on the bottom of the page I noticed a message saying:

Would you like to take a short survey? Your answers will help us create even better products.

I thought: Great, i feel the need to vent my thoughts, how could they know this is what I wanted? So I exitedly downloaded the survey program hoping to get a chance to have my say. And what do I get? Two questions:

What does "NVIDIA SLI" mean?

NVIDIA® TurboCache...


And that's it. No open questions, no nothing. As a thank you from nVIDIA I was redirected to http://www.nzone.com/page/home.html.

Should I laugh or cry? How on earth is this going to help NVIDIA create even better products? Where are they going to get user input from if they are posing two leading questions with multiple choice answers? This is exactly what I've been saying, only this was almost too much for me on one day. The marketing department really needs to get their act together.
I think you should cry, as I think you may have shot yourself in the foot Did you ever stop to think that JUST maybe the point of this particular survey is for the marketing team to get an idea on how well they have penetrated their user base with information and advertising of said technologies? Seems blindingly obvious to me. Put down your torch and pitchfork already.
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Old 03-17-05, 08:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

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Originally Posted by magneto
hmmm I don't know maybe the company putting out a driver that is supposed to work in LINUX for the MX 4000 would tell me directly that it is capable. Or do you mean to say that Nvidia is lying or are fools by releasing a linux driver which is supposed to support the MX 4000?
Is there a hidden Nvidia website where all these hidden truths you speak of can be found? Please post it if so.


In other news I can get Openbox to work with the latest greatest 7167 and lightning fast 698fps in glxgears! (i know its not a benchmark)
But gnome launching crashes the entire system.
My old CPU running in software can render faster than that framerate in glxgears.

Oh, and what price range is the MX 4000 in anyway? Isn't it at the bottom of everything nVidia related as far as retail is concerned? To get less performance you have to buy a used older card.
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Old 03-17-05, 09:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

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Originally Posted by oldsk00l
Oh, and what price range is the MX 4000 in anyway?
$33 at Newegg last time I checked.
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Old 03-17-05, 09:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
My old CPU running in software can render faster than that framerate in glxgears.

Oh, and what price range is the MX 4000 in anyway? Isn't it at the bottom of everything nVidia related as far as retail is concerned? To get less performance you have to buy a used older card.
Not TRUE! I've seen older used cards with better performance seriously
btw that fps remark was made with great sarcasm
I didn't buy the card for gaming just for a semi-decent cheap vid card semi-recent with linux support. Im operating under no illusions as to what the card is supposed to be capable of graphics wise. I was just looking for a card for 2d use with linux support.
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Old 03-17-05, 09:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

k, so you're going to declare nVidia a company that needs allot of work because you're struggling with a $33 card.

k, nice forum trolling guys
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Old 03-17-05, 10:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

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Originally Posted by oldsk00l
k, so you're going to declare nVidia a company that needs allot of work because you're struggling with a $33 card.

k, nice forum trolling guys
forum trolling ? thats your job - Am I the only one having issues with these drivers and this card? No. Does Nvidia supposedly support these cards? Yes Does Nvidia still make money off these cards? Yes
Ohh I get it I'm supposed to spend more money to be able to complain. lmao
OK thanks alot for those pearls.
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Old 03-17-05, 10:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Perhaps actually explaining what you've done to troubleshoot would help too.

If you've done that already, please show me.
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Old 03-17-05, 11:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Before this thread gets out of hand let me say that my first two posts were written with constructive criticism in mind. Put this post in context to what I first wrote. Forget the one about the survey (sorry, it's getting late here). At the same time I was writing with the other card owners in mind, not only myself - hence the mentioning of the MX 4000. I use Xorg 6.8.2, Slack-current and Linux 2.6.11-cko2 with my Geforce4 420 Go. It works with 1.0-6629 but not 1.0-7167 (yet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
I really think you are looking a gift-horse in the mouth. nVidia has had many cases where they did interviews on linux websites, and provided/ratified many questions. Particularly interviews like this

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/t253027.html
Didn't know that. It could be of interest in posting these interviews at the affiliated nVnews site or putting up a link at the nVIDIA. Why not collect them all here at nVnews if they are not already. And yes, I know how to google (can feel it coming).

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
Maybe there needs to be more RTFM's here, because that's part of what FOSS is all about in the first place. If you are having an issue, and want it fixed, fix it yourself, or send an email to nVidia. If there are enough users with the issue to make it worth it, nVidia will fix it. (Historically, we have had GOOD LUCK with nVidia fixing issues and supporting new standards faster than almost any other hardware company out there...PERIOD...END OF DISCUSSION).
The thing is that nVIDIA is not part of the FOSS community. If that had been the case things might have been different. Now, as a paying customer I would never ever tolerate that kind of crap for an answer. Neither would they give in to such language. When I bought my graphics card I got an instruction booklet for Windows. I would like to have Linux information equally available, not necessarily in printed form, just a little bit more accessible. Preferably all in one place. If I as a user know that my particular problem is being worked on, then there is no meaning posting about the same bug, thus relieving the developers from digging too much into the forum posts. How about that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
If you want to go somewhere where the grass is greener, I'm sure you will be amused by the ATI camp, the Matrox camp, or heh, the S3 camp (no support at all).
I can't. This has never been my intention either. I am stuck with my Geforce4 420 Go that came with my notebook which I paid dearly for, and will probably stick with nVIDIA in the future as well. Why are you even suggesting this? I like my card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
If you run into a kernel issue, and a developer isn't interested in fixing it, fix it yourself and a send a patch in. Complaining just degenerates the work that people have put towards it to give us what we have. I hate the notion that you feel there needs to be "more communication". I've found nVidia to be greased lightning in fixing issues, and working with the FOSS community.
I am not complaining. Anyone with insight in quality management knows what I'm talking about (never mind the survey). Are we really that afraid to loose the Linux driver development that we can't even ask for more? The mantra is "put the customer in focus". For this to happen, communication is a and o. In most hotels in the US you will find a questionnaire asking you to help improve the services provided. The same, I think, should apply to this business.

I like how nVIDIA is dedicated to this community. Now that they make accelerated drivers so I can skip the nv one I'm happy. My suggestion was that they take one more step so that we can work more closely with the developers. I am not demanding it, but I think it would be a nice feature to have an official support forum. Someone will be first out with one, for sure, and I would like it to be nVIDIA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
Why? Look at the release notes, are you inferring that they don't fix problems? Last I checked they were the first (only) graphics company to support composite in x.org, and were quick to abandon xfree when it died (and YES, it IS DEAD, if you are an nVidia user with anything above a TNT2 card, DUMP XFREE and GO X.ORG!!!). I don't see how they've been lazy, and I'm quite frankly impressed with the manpower they put into fixing things. Perhaps this is why their OGL driver is the gold standard for everything from development to professional rendering? Again, this just leads back to your hardware, why are you using an MX4000 in Linux anyways? You weren't expecting any kind of real performance in anything were you? Why degenerate nVidia for this? They made no bones about this thing breathing fire for serious application, I think you're trying to give them a raw deal and that takes quite a bit of audacity.

Ummm, last I checked, nVidia is the undisputable leader in Linux support for their products. I challenge you to show me a hardware vendor other than like Cisco that has embraced Linux for it's core business than nVidia has. nVidia uses Linux, and devotes more effort into working with the FOSS community and supporting standards than any other company out there. They did this in an incredibly efficient way too with their unified driver architecture. I think you're just fussing.

Oh, and if you want to go marketshare for Linux, nVidia has everyone else beaten by lightyears. If you want 3D on Linux, and you do your homework, anyone but nVidia is just not an option, for any kind of work.
Last I checked they were the best too, and would like them to stay that way. It was not my intention to irritate people here at the forum (again, forget the survey). There's no point in arguing about whether nVIDIA is good, better or best. If you notice, I didn't even mention my own driver problems in the first posts. This is not the issue for me since I am confident that they will be sorted out in the near future. My point was to get a discussion going, that could lead somewhere. If nVIDIA is well on all fronts, then so is my graphics card.

Last edited by joffe; 03-18-05 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 03-18-05, 12:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

I'd like to see nVIDIA exposes their bug management system to public, at least linux part of it in order to allow its' customers to query exsisting bugs and solutons for them. This will reduce amount of posts reporting the same problem. It will also be wery good to see linux driver roadmap containing planned features list and so on (like KDE team has on http://developer.kde.org).
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Old 03-18-05, 02:25 AM   #22
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

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Originally Posted by Druker
I'd like to see nVIDIA exposes their bug management system to public
... and there seems no reason why this should not be possible. I agree and I also think it should happen.
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Old 03-18-05, 05:48 AM   #23
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

I think it would also be nice to see some "leaked" or beta drivers like on Windows platform. In combination with an open bugtracking system this would be very effective. People who have problems with the stable drivers could download the beta version and maybe the bug has already been fixed, so they can start working without the problem instead of waiting months until the offical driver is released...
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Old 03-18-05, 06:56 AM   #24
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

As oldsk00l pointed out earlier,
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
nVidia is the undisputable leader in Linux support for their products
it is not the question of NVIDIA being lazy or not willing to listen to the community.
Continuing with this
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
if you want to go marketshare for Linux, nVidia has everyone else beaten by lightyears. If you want 3D on Linux, and you do your homework, anyone but nVidia is just not an option, for any kind of work.
Good point. I will extend this reasoning a bit further. As the leader of the pack it is very hard to benchmark against the competition. For this reason it is of utter importance to find new ways to improve. This is a difficult task which relies on a close relationship with the customer. In this case it's not as much about gaining market share, as to keep existing users from switching to another brand should a competitor introduce an interesting product. I am not trying to sound like a smartass here, rather describing things as they stand today.

Would I go to the competition today with the current situation? Absolutely not. What if the alternative company was dedicated to giving good Linux support? Maybe. The situation can probably change in quite a short time. The pure notion of this should be a true incentive for continuous improvement. After all it is better to act than to react.

So how do you improve when you are already the best? A good start is to look at leading actors in markets different from graphics cards. An interesting document is the Quality Self-Assessment Questionnaire that the Baldridge National Quality Program uses when selecting their award recipients. I found the second part relevant, especially question #15.

Now as a conclusion, this is not up to zander and the other hard-working people at NVIDIA assigned to programming. They are already doing a remarkable job. Instead, this kind of motivation has to come from the top management. So how is this appeal mediated to the people in charge if there is no official medium for communication? My first questions in this thread were closely related to this issue.
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