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Old 03-18-05, 08:43 AM   #25
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Please don't let this thread escalate in a flamewar. I will shortly respond to the things you asked. First the nvidia windows and linux drivers share the biggest part of the code (90% or even more) and it is written in such a way that old cards still work fine. Sometimes like in last release bugs can appear that break support. Linux driver development is really a LOT more complicated that Windows. On windows once in a while a new service pack arrives that updates the kernel a little and every year or even less a totally new directx version comes out that requires new drivers too. In case of Linux new kernels appear every month and not to forget that there are lots of different distributions with different gcc, glibc and X versions. This all makes it so much more complicated. For every bug that is fixed a new bug might appear on some other system, it is very difficult to make a driver that is 100% bugfree on all supported distributions.

From my personal point of view the main reason that Nvidia supports Linux is not because they care so much about users who want to play Doom3. The main reason is that lots of customers (Hollywood, hospitals ..) want Linux drivers. Further it is the card manufacturer that you need to contact for technical support and that has to provide drivers. These days vendors just use the nvidia reference drivers but it isn't the responsibility of Nvidia to provide support for those OEM drivers. In case of Linux there useally isn't a Tux on the box of the videocard. If there was one, the card manufacturer would have to hire Linux tech support people. To provide some unofficial support (as Nvidia doesn't have to give support) I think Nvidia wanted a forum here at nvnews. In case of bugs linux-bugs@nvidia.com or this forum is a good place to post them. If it is a real bug zander for instance might notice it and request more information.
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Old 03-18-05, 08:57 AM   #26
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Good Post Thunder. Well said indeed.

We seem to getting load of users lately stating the driver problem. We do sympathize with your plight but let's not carried away and well, wait is all you can do as the Windoze platform is the majority platform and that rightly gets more attention (economics folks ).

Be patient and NV gurus who browse these forums will try to help or note the bugs you have encountered. Patience is the key...as patrozning as that might sound but that is really the only option.
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Old 03-18-05, 10:08 AM   #27
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

I really appreciate your post Thunderbird. Thanks for answering my questions.

My perception of the NVIDIA Linux forum is that it can be used not only for filing bug reports about current drivers but also for other topics related to NVIDIA. That is why I took the liberty to address them here, leaving out my driver problems. The last thing I wanted was to initate a flame war, even though I did write the unfortunate post about the user survey. For my part, I would like to see more discussions like this at the forum, if it is at all possible to keep the emotional postings at a sound level.
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Old 03-18-05, 10:57 AM   #28
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsk00l
Quite frankly your statement is tantamount to "complaining" about a lack of mx 4000 support, and I think this is moot. The MX4000 is NOT intended or targeted towards Linux users in ANY way, and is not INTENDED for the kinds of uses someone who wants to do something substantive in a Linux environment for.

Maybe there needs to be more RTFM's here, because that's part of what FOSS is all about in the first place. If you are having an issue, and want it fixed, fix it yourself, or send an email to nVidia. If there are enough users with the issue to make it worth it, nVidia will fix it. (Historically, we have had GOOD LUCK with nVidia fixing issues and supporting new standards faster than almost any other hardware company out there...PERIOD...END OF DISCUSSION).
Well, if there never was any support, and if it never was Nvidias intention to support it under Linux, why didnīt they just say so in the linux readme?

Easily fixed and then they have no obligation to support it in any way or form under Linux kernels. But, as you very well know, this is not the case. The MX4000 is claimed to be supported. Hence people buying it, along with the great cooling without any fan or fuzz.

Regardless of playing games, itīs nice to have a noiseless, cheap, card that covers all desktop needs with 3D support. Thatīs why I got it in the first place.

What other cards are "supported" but not recommended under Linux?
What are we supposed to buy, in your opinion?

...

I agree, Nvidia has no competitor on the Linux GPU front. Where did you get the notion that he wanted to switch?

I have read the starting post several times, I donīt get your point?

I donīt think he deserves that tone of yours, I think he managed to explain his wishes without getting personal (to anyone) and without getting aggressive.

On another note.

Just plain desktop 3D support will do for me, Iīm not asking for capabilites to play "top 10 choices" of performance games of late.

I personally want a stable (cool and soundless) card to have a stable driver in a stable X environment. 10% less performance compared to the same GPU in Windows? I couldnīt care less. I just thought the MX4000 had what I needed.

Finally, thanks Nvidia (with a special thanks to Zander), for helping us out all the time. You know we appreciate your work, although it doesnīt always shine through in our requests.

Kind regards.
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Old 03-18-05, 10:58 AM   #29
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Quote:
Originally Posted by magneto
I was just looking for a card for 2d use with linux support.
If that's the case, then please use the open source driver.
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Old 03-18-05, 07:20 PM   #30
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Well I think the entire discussion falls back on the following statement that i learned years ago that still holds true:


The sole purpose of a business is to make money.


(for non-profit organizations, they still make money, just not in the form of true profit, they use it to maintain the organization).

Now if making customers happy means making more money, then businesses likely will try to make customers happy.

If putting an officially supported forum on their own webserver would result in nvidia making more money, then I am sure they would've done so by now. Both Ati and Nvidia are "very nice" to Rage3d and NvNews (in terms of employees posting on the forums or at least viewing them etc), but neither company is willing to make one an "official" forum. Thus they must have researched the situations and determined that the costs would outweigh the benefits.

In regards to official documentation for drivers, both Ati and Nvidia provide "readme" files with their drivers. (nvidia's are far more thorough, but regardless, that's about all you should expect).

In regards to releasing every single bug/known issue in a huge list to the world, that would be stupid. Why? It would give an edge to your competitors! They would know your weakness, where your company is having trouble, and thus they could take advantage of that in their own marketing.
Now, if a law existed forcing companies to do that, then ALL companies would do it, thus every company would have the disadvantage and advantage. However, no law exists. As such, if you are a large company (like nvidia) and your large competitors (such as Ati) do not do that, you are only hurting yourself by doing so. (that's not to say i would not like to see such a list....It would defintely be very informative to say the least).

What you can do is simple. Voice your opinion to Nvidia (send off an email to sales or whomever). If they feel that enough people agree with your opinion that it would result in a profit, then they might follow your line of thought.

Nvidia has been very direct with their intentions for the Linux Drivers. They deliver what they promise. Ati initially started to promise without being able to deliver, but i think they've now become a bit more humble when it comes to linux...

That said, I am sure there are certain situations where different video cards (from various manufacturers) work better than others. With Linux, you need to research before you buy. That goes for motherboards, video cards, sound cards...almost all components for that matter. The fact thta they blacklist certain bios revisions should be a sign right there that Linux support isn't really support, it's a "benefit" though!
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Old 03-19-05, 03:17 AM   #31
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

I understand that,as Linux is a minority product, as there are very frequent updates of the Linux kernel, of X and KDE, video card companies cannot make sure their drivers work with all configurations.

I am using Mandrake 10.1 (kernel 2.6.8.1) with a FX5200 and the nvidia drivers (6111 to 7167) will very often crash konqueror (or other web applications) or X alltogether (it crashed again Konqueror when I typed this message). I tried all lot of BIOS, nvidia options and also another version of 2.6.8.1 , etc. but it does not help. This is not acceptable to me. I am not playing games and would be quite happy with the nv driver, but I cannot have it display more than 1280x1024 (I am using 1600x1200, and would even like to move to 1900x1020), the low resolutions of the nv driver are not acceptable either for me.

So I think they should at least try to make sure that :
1- either their nvidia drivers work with the releases of the major distributions, those popular one that are not only for "computer geeks", such as Red Hat/FC, Suse and Mandrake.
2- or make sure their nv driver work at high resolutions such as 1600x1200, 1900x1020, and higher, etc., all what is possible with Microsoft. (I have no problem at 1600x1200 with nvidia Microsoft driver)

I shouldn't be stuck like I am. I cannot wait any longer, this has last for too long (4 or 5 months! 3 different drivers... none working properly, all crashing konqueror or X). So I guess I have to buy another card, but what nVIDIA or ATI card will properly work at high resolution (>= 1600x1200) with my distribution?
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Old 03-19-05, 08:52 AM   #32
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinthos
Nvidia has been very direct with their intentions for the Linux Drivers. They deliver what they promise. Ati initially started to promise without being able to deliver, but i think they've now become a bit more humble when it comes to linux...
I believe this to be very true.

I also believe they've started to "deliver" more and more of what they initially stated/wanted to, which is what we ask for, nothing more.

I also believe that Zander is the sole spirit that keeps thing going for most of us. (well at least for me)

But, could we agree that a question mark should've been attached to the MX4000 when it comes to Linux? Support pending, or similar?

Just as oldsk00l said in his remark, we shouldn't have bought the GPU in the first place as it is the cheapest way out and probably isn't worth the fuzz attached to it (where he is absolutely right, by the way) , but we didn't know it's drawbacks back then so here we are...

Had I known, I would have bought a more expensive card, put out the cash for the passive cooler and dealt with all the other expenses as well, to get it working. It has taken quite some time, but we are getting there :-D

AND

The sole purpose for a customer is to pay money, and get what he bought in the first place, so that the business can go on and on making business and the customer can live in mega harmony together with his friends (and enemies) and everybodys happy ever after LOL *jokingly*

I wish all you guys the best, and thanks for staying civilised and within the forum limits ;-) I made a few jokes on the way as well, I hope they are to be regarded as such and not be the number one cause of flamers top 100 excuses for kicking butt.
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Old 03-19-05, 08:53 AM   #33
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

2.6.8.1? Is that a kernel?
You might want to upgrade it to the latest official (I'm sure mandrake has at least 2.6.10)
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Old 03-19-05, 11:39 AM   #34
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Default Re: Open letter to nVnews and nVIDIA

Don't let this thread escalate. Again the nvidia drivers are quite good. The majority of the people doesn't have issues. Myself I have been using the drivers since the .90 version (and used the xfree86 3.3x drivers too) and I really haven't had problems. (on lots of different systems and distributions) Useally if there are problems it is or a hardware problem, distribution problem and in few cases a real driver problem. In case of the mx4000 there shouldn't be any problems as it is just a rebranded geforce4mx. It isn't a new chip at all and it doesn't contain any changes. There now is some other topic about a guy who couldn't get 3d working with it before, now it is already starting to work. It is still a little slow for him (agp troubles I think) but the card really is supported.
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Old 03-19-05, 12:00 PM   #35
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Xid <- that's the nVidia's biggest problem
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