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Old 03-18-05, 10:28 PM   #25
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
To be honest, this whole UE3 thing is kinda scary. Because really, with graphics like those, there isn't much more that can be done. Oh sure, a few rough edges will be smoothed out and more features will be added to it, but as far as 3d rendering there isn't much more you'd need, aside from radiosity (which will hopefully be faked...using the method I came up with if nothing else!). UE3 may represent the final chapter in real-time 3d graphic engines, since there's very little room for improvement past it (though there will of course be competing engines).
We hear the same thing every year There is always room for higher resolution textures, etc. Game engines will move from being just "graphics" to an actual engine, sound, physics, A.I., etc. Those can all be improved upon.

Real time ray tracing, and radiosity is great, but I don't think we are gonna see that for a while.
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Old 03-18-05, 10:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

to put it simply radiosity is what cg movies are rendered with. at least thats a part of it. its a algorithm that calculates the way light bounces off surfaces and scatters to produce what you see...shadows, ect.

imo we have very many things to do beyond ue3 tech. it looks wonderful though.

ive been following cg tech very closely lately because ive started doing alot myself and so ive been looking into some of the most recent advances. being that game graphics have not yet even scratched the surface of what cg graphics do...we have a very very long way to go since new developments in cg are happening all the time.

for now, the the hacked techniques (i dont mean that to sound like game programming is crappy) used in games work very well, but once the bandwidth problem is solved and we can more efficiently use our raw power for real time rendering things will get very exciting for game developement.

as mentioned before, the BIG goal is to be able to render radiosity in real time. radiosity pretty much will take care of all of our shadow/texture problems. i mean that none of them will be done as seperate parts of some kind of a pixel or vertex shader. that is assuming the when it is done in real time it is implemented in the same way as what we see already in cg packages.

i gues i should mention that radiosity and ray tracing almost go hand in hand. radiosity has more to do with calculating light energy (dont understand it completely) ray tracing has more to do with producing shadows, reflections, ect....

just dont wanna get flamed...
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Old 03-18-05, 10:44 PM   #27
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by brady
to put it simply radiosity is what cg movies are rendered with. at least thats a part of it. its a algorithm that calculates the way light bounces off surfaces and scatters to produce what you see...shadows, ect.

imo we have very many things to do beyond ue3 tech. it looks wonderful though.

ive been following cg tech very closely lately because ive started doing alot myself and so ive been looking into some of the most recent advances. being that game graphics have not yet even scratched the surface of what cg graphics do...we have a very very long way to go since new developments in cg are happening all the time.

for now, the the hacked techniques (i dont mean that to sound like game programming is crappy) used in games work very well, but once the bandwidth problem is solved and we can more efficiently use our raw power for real time rendering things will get very exciting for game developement.

as mentioned before, the BIG goal is to be able to render radiosity in real time. radiosity pretty much will take care of all of our shadow/texture problems. i mean that none of them will be done as seperate parts of some kind of a pixel or vertex shader. that is assuming the when it is done in real time it is implemented in the same way as what we see already in cg packages.
OT, but I think we have the same LCD. Is yours the LT782s?
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Old 03-18-05, 10:48 PM   #28
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

hmm not sure. im in bed on my laptop right now and i dont want to go check...sorry. but, i got it from best buy for like 175. then i got curious cuz i thought that was pretty cheap so i checked it online at best buy and it said it was 250 or something like that. so im thinking that they messed up on the tags cuz everywhere i checked it was more than 175.

how much was yours?

oh and to keep this on topic...those ue3 trees sure look cool!
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Old 03-18-05, 10:51 PM   #29
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

I love those trees! They look spectacular on my $190 Mag LCD that I got the day after Thanksgiving for $290 with a $100 MIR and then got another $15 off when I took it back to get a replacement because of dead pixels.
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Old 03-18-05, 10:51 PM   #30
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by jAkUp
We hear the same thing every year There is always room for higher resolution textures, etc. Game engines will move from being just "graphics" to an actual engine, sound, physics, A.I., etc. Those can all be improved upon.
The difference is that this time, we ARE getting graphics that are "CG" quality. That has always been the goal of 3d graphics: to create something that looks so real it's mistakable from the real thing. Jurassic Park did this, noone would've suspected that the dinosaurs would've been 3d unless you told them. And similarly, some of those UE3 pics look dangerously close to the "real thing" (although there's always room for improvement). And I've never heard a person who knows anything about 3d graphics say that any previous engine was "as good as it gets", that's just a marketing term more than anything else. Although if you want to go by what uneducated individuals think of 3d graphics, I remember someone looked at NBA 2K in the window of Gamestop back in 1999, and he thought it was a real basketball game (as in, not a VIDEO game). Guess we reached photo-realism a long time ago

Also if you'll notice, in my post I only refered specifically to graphics, not sound/netcode/etc. Those can of course be made better as well, but as far as rendering engines go, UE3 will be one of the top ones for a while. We still have a hell of a long way to go when it comes to other aspects (especially sound...we've barely moved forward in sound technology since Aureal's A3D 2.0, which was released 7 years ago...in fact in many ways we've moved backwards).

And Superklye, radiosity is basically light reflection off of surfaces. For example if you put a red ball up against a white wall, you'll see that the part of the wall around the ball turns a reddish color. The obvious challenge in recreating this in 3d graphics is that you would need to gauge the reflection of EVERY SINGLE LIGHT BOUNCE, and in the real world light bounces are near infinant. With pre-rendered graphics it usually takes a few days to render a single scene with a decent amount of radiosity, so it's pretty much out of the question for modern real-time graphics. But it wouldn't surprise me if some kind of hardware support was added to speed up the process, done correctly it could be replicated pretty well without being nearly as big of a performance hit as it is on current technology. Actually I think there's a real-time 3d graphics engine demo that does have support for single-bounce radiosity, but enabling the effect makes it run at about 1 frame every 30 seconds at 320x240 in a very simple geometric room with only a few light sources.
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Old 03-18-05, 10:59 PM   #31
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

Ok, when I see a game with unreal engine 3 in action and it actually looks that close to real life, I'll bow down my hat. Until then, I'm more excited about STALKER.
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Old 03-18-05, 11:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by brady
to put it simply radiosity is what cg movies are rendered with. at least thats a part of it. its a algorithm that calculates the way light bounces off surfaces and scatters to produce what you see...shadows, ect.

imo we have very many things to do beyond ue3 tech. it looks wonderful though.

ive been following cg tech very closely lately because ive started doing alot myself and so ive been looking into some of the most recent advances. being that game graphics have not yet even scratched the surface of what cg graphics do...we have a very very long way to go since new developments in cg are happening all the time.

for now, the the hacked techniques (i dont mean that to sound like game programming is crappy) used in games work very well, but once the bandwidth problem is solved and we can more efficiently use our raw power for real time rendering things will get very exciting for game developement.

as mentioned before, the BIG goal is to be able to render radiosity in real time. radiosity pretty much will take care of all of our shadow/texture problems. i mean that none of them will be done as seperate parts of some kind of a pixel or vertex shader. that is assuming the when it is done in real time it is implemented in the same way as what we see already in cg packages.

i gues i should mention that radiosity and ray tracing almost go hand in hand. radiosity has more to do with calculating light energy (dont understand it completely) ray tracing has more to do with producing shadows, reflections, ect....

just dont wanna get flamed...

I think you explained all very well.. in simple terms.
Raytracing is more cheapier than Radiosity ,because it only focuse on direct ilumination , once the light hit a surface it dies there . With RAdiosity ,called GLobal Illumination also..indirect ilumination is possible ,because light bounce as many times as you need it. light is stored as energy on surfaces. but lets not understimate Raytracing.. this technique alone its capable of Very high Quality CG movies.

but i dont think REalism will be the end of graphics.. I think BEyond Realism IS.. Those are the graphics that looks like Heavenly like.. or hellish like. lol Japanesse Artists are very good here.. Anyone that have seen concept arts from Playstation FF games will know what i mean.
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Old 03-19-05, 06:46 AM   #33
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

ok well here we go. i thought it would be neat to post some comparison shots to some of the impressive screens that are up at the unreal tech web site so we could see how close (or far away) we are from what is done in cg.

i choose certain shots that had a similar composition. it was difficult to find shots that matched ue3 closely but i did the best i could without spending all morning.

ok lets begin...



unreal (real time)





Title: Bathroom Scene
Name: Josh Staub
Country: United States
Software: 3ds max, VRay





with this set of shots i wanted to compare a reletively close up composition including only a very few objects. you can instantly see the difference between what is rendered in real time and what is pre-rendered.




unreal (real time)





Name: Weiweihua
Country: China
Software: Max6.vray





this is just an obvious comparison of an outdoor scene. you can see that one uses a texture to represent the ground/grass with few blades and the other uses primarily geometric blades of grass, probably millions of them.



unreal (real time)




cg (pre-rendered)




and




these shots compare architexture, obviosly. i think the ue3 shot looks pretty darn good being a real time screeny and all. hdr is going to go a long way in convincing us i think. hdri was huge when cg got it a while back. still you can see where radiosity pulls cg miles ahead.



as a final note keep in mind that although current and future gfx cards can and will push around rediculous amounts of pure geometry when building scenes for cg there are virtually no limits as far as how much geometry you can have. of course anyone who knows anything about it will tell you that its unwise to just plot polys in a scene because you can. but when your going to be waiting minutes, hours, even days for a single frame to pop out, ehhh why not.

anyways i just thought it would be interesting to see cg next to the most gorgeous real time graphics screens any of us have seen to date. i guess this shows us both that we are soo close yet soo far away.

------------------------------------

sorry to all the modem users whose experience on this thread i just threw down the crapper.
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Old 03-19-05, 07:02 AM   #34
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

Unreal Engine 3 DOES NOT look like a Cg movie. Hell, after hearing Carmack's Quakecon speech and my correspondence with the guys at CryTek, Unreal Engine 3 will be OLD NEWS.

Heck, in the UE3 demo's they said that a shader is 50-100 instructions long. FarCry uses shaders already that are 160 instructions long, and typical ones are pushing the limits of the R300 processor with 96 instructions.

What does UE3 have over the current CryEngine anyway?
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Old 03-19-05, 07:20 AM   #35
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

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Originally Posted by Intel17
Unreal Engine 3 DOES NOT look like a Cg movie. Hell, after hearing Carmack's Quakecon speech and my correspondence with the guys at CryTek, Unreal Engine 3 will be OLD NEWS.

Heck, in the UE3 demo's they said that a shader is 50-100 instructions long. FarCry uses shaders already that are 160 instructions long, and typical ones are pushing the limits of the R300 processor with 96 instructions.

What does UE3 have over the current CryEngine anyway?

i think there are several things that ue3 has over the current cryengine. a more robust shadow engine for one. off the gfx topic it also has a much more powerful and interactive physics engine. there are really quite a few things. imo it is very impressive but i dont doubt that id and crytek have some very interesting things up there sleaves. the difference right now is they have not shown anything.

intel, i think it would be helpful if you checked out these videos. not only do they show the engine in action but there is a rep explaining some the bells and whistles involved.
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Old 03-19-05, 07:27 AM   #36
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Default Re: Unreal 3 SpeedTree Shots

More robust shadow engine? Perhaps, but it still relies on stencil shadows for static environments, while CryEngine can use softshadows everywhere. However on dynamic characters UE3 uses more samples for higher quality shadows, but it's characters only.

If UE3 has an advantage, it's nothing particularly big.
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