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Old 08-15-05, 03:48 AM   #25
|MaguS|
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

No one knew how well the MMORPG crave would take off, especially Verant. Heck most people thought Verant were crazy for requiring 3D Acceleration.

EQ1 is flawed but so is EVERY MMORPG out there, I know that CH was unbalanced and forced every encounter to be created around it... trust me as a End Game Cleric... I know...

Even if looking at the walls and being in a CH rotation, I still had more fun in EQ1 then EQ2 and WoW together... Not even L2 which is my main MMORPG currently is drawing me in like EQ1 did.

The game had flaws but it had the staying power and the draw to keep people for so long, this is whats lacking in about all current MMORPGs.
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Old 08-15-05, 04:06 AM   #26
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Magus. Current MMORPGs havent been around long enough to come close to offering the content EQ 1 does. Give them time and some breathing room and you may be surprised. Before Kunark EQ 1 had the same problems WoW/EQ2 have right now. Not enough content to keep players satisfied. In fact things were even worse.

Two High level zones. Both were camped so excessively you could walk from lower guk entrance to Ghoul Lord room. Or Solusek B where you could walk from entrance to Naggy's lair without aggroing a soul. And 2 raid zones before Kunark. ((Plane of Hate/Fear, And hate being implemented near Kunark's implementation)). It's not fair to say games dont offer the content of EQ 1 when they have been released. In Comparison to EQ 1 on release. WoW and EQ 2 offer alot more content than either EQ1 ever did. And both have nicely solved the overcrowding problem with instances. Half the EQ 1 bottlenecks at the time were just finding mobs to hunt. This is why Guard Hunting became so popular. Despite Verants significant efforts to disuade it.

Games cant have the infinate content EQ 1 does have without extensive amounts of time invested into expansions/ect. Sony does seem to be following the EQ 1 trend and doing an expansion every 6 months regardless. And yes EQ 2 and WoW have problems. EQ 2's biggest problem right now is the fisher price combat system it has going. Thank god they are fixing it. I have been testing the EQ 2 revised combat system and it is much much better. Classes feel alot more like their EQ 1 counterparts and have flavor, ((Bards, Have charms, mezzes, Necromancers have lifetaps and faster dots, ))The stats also actually matter ((Str/Agility/Wis/Int)) in a way thats positive to having them now as well. Gear is being made more meaningful. Which will seperate high end gear from low end gear. Ect. To make raiding more worthwhile. Gear should scale similarly too spell scrolls nowadays.
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Last edited by ChrisRay; 08-15-05 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 08-15-05, 05:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Please forgive my in-consistant nature of this post, it's kinda mis-mashed together, somewhat random thoughts, hey it's late and i've been up for 18 hours.

That's a good start, now they just need to work on Performance, Art, and get rid of Trivial Loot and Locked Combat and they will be on to somthing.

It's pretty sad when the differnce between a Dual 7800 GTX and a single 9800 Pro is about 20 frames hehe. Not to mention the game won't even run at Widescreen resolutions with SLI right now

WoW got that right at least. WoW is probably the closest current mmo to EQ1 there is. You can see alot of influence in wow from EQ.

I'd argue your point about CH not being balenced now, as I think it is, but no point in debating symantics. Also what are these other games that where sooo much better balenced then EQ? Dark Age of Camelot? let me tell you a story about this game, I had a brief 1 month tirade into this world and Hunters where anything but balenced friend, not even close for months people complained about them owning everything. I quit shortly thereafter so I don't know how that ended, but I wouldent be surprized if it carried on for months onward.

And how do we define "Balence" anyways, you open up a huge can of worms here. Take Wow for instance.. Hunters are the very best PVE class in the game, they suck ass for PVP, does that make them balenced? Shamans are awsome PVP and so-so PVE, rogues are insane PVP and Insane PVE as well? How do you define "Balence" if you remember back in the day clerics could not solo **** whatsoever. But they where exceptional in groups.

Not saying wow's perfect, far from it, PVE is really boring, and there is no meangingful LFG tool, the innkeeper system sucks, though battle grounds if hella fun, alot of noobs play WOW so it's just alot of fun to get out there and chop people down hehe, im always top 3 killer in Battleground, regardless of which team wins.

Here you go, these numbers are laughable at best haha. What a disgrace, but we all know that EQ2 has some Elite programers and their code is highly optimized and it's just that the game REQUIRES Super computers, there's no possible way that somthing that looks 2x better and runs circles around this game will come out in the next year or two.



HMM on an unrelated note (im an Nvidiot myself) GO ATI! hehe damn that's impressive, single ATI card riding witht he big boys, a whole 4 fps slower then Dual 7800's, but hell we all know this bad boy is "Nvidia the way it's Meant to be played!" hahaha

Disclaimer: Yes i know the reason the numbers are like this is the game is Obviously CPU limited, the question remains? WHY? It must be all that AI and Network overhead right? yeah that's it, cause god knows no other MMO has AI this advanced and has absolutely no network overhead. Dont' worry though im sure the Elite crew at SOE is currently working their butts off to code in Multi-Proc support, I mean a game so CPU limited should see massive increases from Dual Proc /X2 sony wouldent just put somthing that huge ont he backburner and ignore it for the rest of this games lifetime.

Last edited by Elderblaze; 08-15-05 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 08-15-05, 05:39 AM   #28
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Hey while im on a roll lets talk about WOW a bit.. Judging from the very low POLY counts in this game, and simplistc Geometry and textures, though no to knock the game, they mask it very well with style and it fits, anyway judging from this you would think they could absolutely POUND OUT the content, hell i wouldent be surprized if they had some kinda Warcraft 3 Map creator for making WOW zones, with such a simple world and art, you'd think a small team could just push mad content out and massively expand the world in no time flat.. blizzard is lazy and rest on it's laurals lately.. /sigh
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Old 08-15-05, 05:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

haha im on a roll now baby! Upon further analysis of this little chart here, perhaps EQ2's not as CPU limitd as we think eh? If it was 100% CPU limited and holding the true power of 7800's back 4x aa should have like absolutely no effect on performance, to bad when you enable AA you take a ~20%(rough guess) performance decrease


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Old 08-15-05, 05:51 AM   #30
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elderblaze
Not saying wow's perfect, far from it, PVE is really boring, and there is no meangingful LFG tool,
WoW's PVE is almost a complete cut and paste from EQ1s. You mention that WoW has no LFG Tool but neither did EQ1 when it original released. I remembered Countless hours sitting at a zone entrance shouting for a group... they didn't even have a visible "LFG" tag for a long time, you had to search the zone list to see whos LFG.

Both WoW and EQ2 should have content amount that matches EQ1 to Kunark. EQ1 launched with a lack of content because it still took everyone a hell of a long time to complete it. Naggy wasn't even killed till more then 5 months after release... WoW and EQ2 have almost been completed just shortly after launch. This is mainly to the fault of the developers, they are not adapting the game model to the community. They need to have a balance of low and highs which I believe EQ1 did very well untill after luclin (PoP+). Even Velious had areas where a lvl 30+ could explore and Kunark had zone ranges for every level 1-60.
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Old 08-15-05, 06:37 AM   #31
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Quote:
Both WoW and EQ2 should have content amount that matches EQ1 to Kunark. EQ1 launched with a lack of content because it still took everyone a hell of a long time to complete it. Naggy wasn't even killed till more then 5 months after release... WoW and EQ2 have almost been completed just shortly after launch. This is mainly to the fault of the developers, they are not adapting the game model to the community. They need to have a balance of low and highs which I believe EQ1 did very well untill after luclin (PoP+). Even Velious had areas where a lvl 30+ could explore and Kunark had zone ranges for every level 1-60
Except the raid zones in WoW are still mostly untouched. Because some areas of WoW are just insanely difficult. The strange thing about WOW is the game goes from super easy to super hard dependent on where you are. Once you start doing some of the end game instances. The difficulty revamps up.

In Regards to EQ 2. Yes EQ 2 raid content is trivial because of the fisher price combat system. Right now its possible to buff charactors up to 100% avoidance. Hence why they are completely redoing the combat system. While the average player game seems to move more smoothly. Heroics/Epic encounters are actually difficult. The game is being balanced to where grouping is absolutely required for heroics. ((Even greens)) Its obvious to me that Sony didnt really test the EQ 2 combat system before implementing it well at high levels. At least when taking into account raiding and multiple class buffing.

In about 2 weeks. This wont be anymore at all. Raids will be hard. Epic Encounters will be hard. And sony can get back to work on actual content.
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Old 08-15-05, 06:41 AM   #32
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Well Sure in two weeks they will fix the combat system and then everyone will being crying due to the changes... just like in SWG. SWG had a horrible combat system and when they finally get around to it and make combat good, everyone complains...
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Old 08-15-05, 06:42 AM   #33
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Quote:
haha im on a roll now baby! Upon further analysis of this little chart here, perhaps EQ2's not as CPU limitd as we think eh? If it was 100% CPU limited and holding the true power of 7800's back 4x aa should have like absolutely no effect on performance, to bad when you enable AA you take a ~20%(rough guess) performance decrease
Alright.. Heres a quote from me in the EQ 2 forums. Everquest 2 is not entirely CPU limited. Only some aspects of it are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisRay
regards to not using the full power of your GPU. The answer to your question is yes and no. As you might imagine current GPUS tend to have 2 functions. Drawing pixels and drawing geometry. In my experience with the game engine. The game is remarkably bound by shader/pixel filling power under these certain conditions.

1) Water
2) Particle Fillrate
3) Specular Lighting
4) Normal Maps
5) Lighting Quality
6) Bloom Effects

However the game is also remarkably bound by the processing capability of your CPU under these various conditions.

1) Polygon Detail
2) Animation Quality
3) Foliage
4) High Detail Charactors
5) Low Detail Charactors
6) Texture performance.

Now I know it doesnt seem to make alot of sense to draw the geometry detail on on the CPU from one perspective. Marketing aside, it makes sense to though from a business perspective.. Most mainstream/midrange graphic cards which feature the capabilities to render EQ 2 simply do not have the vertex/geometry crunching power available to render EQ 2's detailed enviroments. Currently there is very limited means of adjusting this as well. ((I think EQ 2 could use the ability to clip planes Ala EQ 1). The texture performance also seems to be limited by the bus speed of your system between the graphic card and the system memory due to the way textures are shared between GPU and system memory. This is likely the reason why some systems stutter and some do not. Mainly AGP systems with instability of the AGP bus. Of course thats speculation on my part. But I predict most texture stuttering is related to such issues and hard drive trashing.



I think its important people be fair and realistic here. ((And I admit we're all victoms of marketing at times)) that sony needed to design a game forward looking while still maintaining compatibility with current software. Sony wouldnt have any market for computers that dont exist yet.
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Old 08-15-05, 06:45 AM   #34
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

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Originally Posted by |MaguS|
Well Sure in two weeks they will fix the combat system and then everyone will being crying due to the changes... just like in SWG. SWG had a horrible combat system and when they finally get around to it and make combat good, everyone complains...

People are already crying now. People are used to the game being in easy mode for raids. But IMO its good that Sony did this now rather than wait. Otherwise EQ 2 could have went down the path of EQ 1's combat system. Its for the good of the game as a whole right now. But like I said. The combat changes are doing more than revamping the actual mitigation/resist/avoidance/damage system. But some classes are being redone so they're not so stupid anymore.

Necromancers are more like necromancers. Bards charm, Defilers Wars are being mitigated. Theres no more of that retarded stacking that you would stack 10 spells at a time on a single creature. The revamp is going to make alot of people seriously reconsider some play styles.
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Old 08-15-05, 07:14 AM   #35
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

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In about 2 weeks. This wont be anymore at all. Raids will be hard. Epic Encounters will be hard. And sony can get back to work on actual content.
They've revamped all of the epic encounters already. Vison of Vox is practically unkillable. Lvl 57 with a 4.5k+ dmg AoE. The tower in Commonlands was revamped (forgot name :X) with the epic lvl 54, my guild (No Debt on Crushbone, one of the top guilds) tried it and we got beat 3 times in a row. The guy spams for 2.5k + he has loike 8 lvl 52's with him just stomped the **** out of the rest of the crew.
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Old 08-15-05, 01:51 PM   #36
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Default Re: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

It's ignorant to cater to the low end crowd and ignore the high end, yes the lowend crowd is the masses, but to ignore high end people is not smart, the best option is to implement BOTH hardware and software aceleration for things that can be hardware accelerated. Sony's implementation is poor poor.

It's subjective but for me Performance is always > Looks. One of the reasons I enjoy wow infinatly moreso then EQ2. It performs incredible, and looks great doing it. Stylized art is the way to go for a low poly world.
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