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Old 08-30-05, 12:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudedog
Does this have anything to do with this new INQ story

"Germans claim Nvidia caught "over optimising" "
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25807

Those guys noticed a texture shimmering problem when you are using normal driver settings. This was the case with NV40 cards but you could resolve this flickering by using high quality driver settings. This won't work on G70 based cards, so the guys well known for its thorough benchmarks went digging a little deeper into the chip.

It turns out that Nvidia is not doing anisotropic filtering the way it should and that the picture quality is the one to suffer. You will get the shimmering effect on your textures whenever you are using Geforce 7800GTX cards but you won't see this using Radeon cards.

The guys claimed that all NV40 and G70 cards will suffer from the same flickering problem and that these cards have "by far worse AF quality". They also add that Nvidia got the flickering because it was using general under sampling and as a result is getting the flickers. It's interesting to note that older Geforce 5800 Ultra won't suffer from this, just the new cards that 6800 or 7800 based.

Another German web site Computerbase , went a step further. It made a custom driver by changing the inf, where the driver could not recognise 7800GTX and use its optimisations. The card was listed as unknown but was working just fine. But when the guys went testing they noticed a massive performance drop when using those drivers, close to 30 percent and related it to anisotropic filtering. Nvidia has a lot to explain.

3DCenter, for the original article, is here in English while the Computerbase German article is here. We will ask Nvidia what is going on but we think there's something up. At lease the guys proved it isnít a hardware bug - it's a driver problem only but performance drops dramatically as soon as you resolve it

Interesting....30 percent drops? If all optimizations are unrecognized? I'm glad I held off on the 7800gtx.
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Old 08-30-05, 12:55 PM   #26
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Yes lets remove all the optimasions from the card, that makes ALLOT OF SENSE... not. Try and remove all of ATi's driver optimastions and run a "3dmurk". Jesus what a bunch of CRAP!
Lol and lets wonder why the driver did not name the card correctly in the german test... If the ****ing removed almost the whole driver. Why even have a driver annymore...lol some people.
 
Old 08-30-05, 12:59 PM   #27
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

I honestly considered switching to the X800XT from my 6800 solely because of the anisotropy issues. I'd hate to find out that these new rumors are true - I spent a lot of money on this card. A lot of the preliminary reviews said the IQ was fantastic and didn't mention the shimmering at all, which I find bizarre considering how prevalent it is. I don't have a single game that I can't notice it in. I've almost considered disabling AF, but I can't stand the blurriness. If these drivers really don't fix it, I may jump ship and grab an R520 (assuming they're as great as they sound and don't suffer from the same problems). Feature-wise the 7 series is awesome but the AF image quality is terrible because of the shimmering. My 6800GT had noticably better IQ than my 7800GTX with the LOD Bias clamp enabled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterJensen
Lol and lets wonder why the driver did not name the card correctly in the german test... If the ****ing removed almost the whole driver. Why even have a driver annymore...lol some people.
Heh good point.
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Old 08-30-05, 03:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Changing the driver and expecting it to work correctly w/o recognizing the card is moronic:
They may have removed the code responsible for the shimmering artifact (I didn't read the article), but claiming the 30% performance drop due to disabling optimization for AF is presposterous.
First of all, it's too much of a drop. No modern card should suffer 30% performance hit from simply enabling AF, let alone from an optimization.
Secondly, did they really expect the driver to work at full speed w/o recognizing the card? I know that these are Germans, but they must be the dumbest germans I've ever heard of. The Inquirer making a statement like "the Germans proved..." is very careless.
Both, the Germans and the Inquirer, have completely lost all credibility with me. I think I'll just stop reading the Inquirer. Journalism without common sense is unacceptable. Or journalists without common sense should be fired.
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Old 08-30-05, 06:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrh2
The Inquirer making a statement like "the Germans proved..." is very careless.
Both, the Germans and the Inquirer, have completely lost all credibility with me. I think I'll just stop reading the Inquirer. Journalism without common sense is unacceptable. Or journalists without common sense should be fired.
That's the Inquirer for ya.
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Old 08-30-05, 06:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

I'm going ati next time I buy a card. The FX series was a botch, my G6 still has shimmering, the G7's is even worse. I dont like having only a HQ fix so far with the G6 that doesnt even really work. Nvidia over-optimizes imo. I mean come on, it's one thing if your gonna cheat, but to get caught every f*cking time....at least be good about bull****ting the public. Cripes...

Ati aint perfect, but that x850 I owned for a short time had far better IQ, had it not hit 98C full load i'd still have it. The r520 will have sm3.0, so the features are there, I can careless about sli, i'm a one card kind guy heh....and if it's slightly slower, i'll take the 5-10 less frames for far better Image Quality.

3 strikes nvidia is out. Maybe if they can get things right for the G80 I'll be back with them...but I remember saying that when the FX series was around, and then again regarding the G7...so...
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Old 08-30-05, 06:18 PM   #31
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Guys, please get back on topic.

The simple fact is that NVIDIA is working on a fix to a problem that is not easy to accurately convey. NVIDIA has a beta driver already out to testers. That, by itself, is a great sign of support.
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Old 08-30-05, 06:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by aAv7
I'm going ati next time I buy a card. The FX series was a botch, my G6 still has shimmering, the G7's is even worse. I dont like having only a HQ fix so far with the G6 that doesnt even really work. Nvidia over-optimizes imo. I mean come on, it's one thing if your gonna cheat, but to get caught every f*cking time....at least be good about bull****ting the public. Cripes...

Ati aint perfect, but that x850 I owned for a short time had far better IQ, had it not hit 98C full load i'd still have it. The r520 will have sm3.0, so the features are there, I can careless about sli, i'm a one card kind guy heh....and if it's slightly slower, i'll take the 5-10 less frames for far better Image Quality.

3 strikes nvidia is out. Maybe if they can get things right for the G80 I'll be back with them...but I remember saying that when the FX series was around, and then again regarding the G7...so...
Well your post steered off topic some since OP's intention was to convey his results with the beta drivers to everyone. I'm optimistic that nVidia will at least pull up the quality of the 7800 AF to 6800 levels. I share your affection for ATi image quality though, it's still the best despite TMSAA but unlike you I'm gonna skip the R520 since I heard about R580s successful tape out. Whoops went a bit OT myself.
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Old 08-30-05, 06:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianG
The simple fact is that NVIDIA is working on a fix to a problem that is not easy to accurately convey. NVIDIA has a beta driver already out to testers. That, by itself, is a great sign of support.
I agree. If nVidia were so concerned with with misleading the public they wouldn't publicly acknowledge the problem and get to fixing it, would they?

Like I said, can't wait for these to go public and try 'em out. I've always had the best luck with nVidia's beta drivers.
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Old 08-30-05, 06:29 PM   #34
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

My problem is this guys....they KNEW when they made the G6 there was a problem, they knew even MORE when making the G7 the shimmering was a problem. The fact is they let it go until they got caught. It's obvious they knew about it. And now they get credit for fixing it!? That's BS. Had no one mentioned it, they would have slid by and let everyone think all was fine.

They arent doing anything noble. They're fixing a problem they knew the card(s) had, a problem that could have been prevented from the start. ESPECIALLY with the G7.

I dont see what's so great about addressing a problem that could have been prevented.

" Sorry you guys caught us red handed, NOW that you have, we'll bother to fix it"

And then its all

Nvidia Roxxorzzz!!!!
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Old 08-30-05, 06:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

Due to popular request. I am in the process of running/creating videos using HQ on WoW between the two drivers in HQ mode. I should have them available tonight.

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Old 08-30-05, 06:42 PM   #36
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Default Re: Shimmering Drivers: Preliminary Results

awesome, thanx for all the effort you put into your research.

also, i seem to remember you mentioning that af quality was inferior on 7 series when compared to 6 series and you showed a screenshot of hl2 showing this i think. do these drivers tidy that up?
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