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Old 11-13-05, 05:57 PM   #13
Zelda_fan
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

Quote:
Originally Posted by dante_uk
A Simple example: In XP - I want to run a program, I know the folder that contains the .exe so I click on the folder, there are lots more files than fit on the screen(detail view) so I click on the 'Type' heading, now 'Applications' are all at the top and I can see the .exe I want.
In Vista - the sort sequence changed, but it's not listing alphabetically anymore, I stared at it for awhile and clicked the heading a number of times but no, it's not sorting it to anything obvious, I had to scroll the file list down about halfway to find the .exe I wanted.(I'm back in XP at the mo' so I can't take another longer look at this, and why should I? this is suppose to be a step forward. Easier to use not more complicated).

This is a classic example of 'fixing' something that isn't broke!
Well you have to give MS the benefit of the doubt that IT IS a beta OS. I would be shocked if you couldn't sort files by specific type in Vista at the click of a button. It might not be in beta 2, but I'm sure it is gonna be in the retail.
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Old 11-13-05, 06:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

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Originally Posted by Zelda_fan
<snip>
btw I think "classic view" is the most retarted thing MS ever put into XP and Vista. People are just lazy and don't want to learn how to use a new, more efficent, UI. They should force people to use the new UI and not provide the option to go back.
What?! XP default UI is the gayest crappest UI ever.. I dont know a single person at work who doesn't switch XP into classic mode. It looks friggen horrible.

If MS completely screw over OpenGL in future OS's, I'll switch to linux or Mac, and get a console for games.
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Old 11-13-05, 06:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

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Originally Posted by Zelda_fan
exactly, when I used to work in IT and we did the big upgrade to XP, people gave me so much hell becasue I outright refused to switch the theme back to classic view. A week later no complaining becasue people had gotten used to it and found it was actually more efficent.
Or they just grudgingly accepted that you wouldn't change it and taught themselves to live with an unneccisary setup. I honestly never found any reason to use the XP UI, especially when it uses more system resources (which I never thought about much until I saw it running on a 600mhz PC I had to reformat at my workplace). Funny thing is, funtionality-wise it doesn't offer many improvements: almost all of the changes are purely cosmetic. And in some cases they reduce efficiency, such as the fading in of folders in the Start bar instead of appearing instantly.

I can't say much about Vista's interface since I haven't seen or tried it yet. But I honestly doubt it will allow for any functionality I don't already have on my Win2k setup.
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Old 11-13-05, 06:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

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Originally Posted by Nutty
What?! XP default UI is the gayest crappest UI ever.. I dont know a single person at work who doesn't switch XP into classic mode. It looks friggen horrible.
Agreed.

And as for Vista and OpenGL, it's a big deal if OpenGL is crippled in windowed mode. Every 3d tool I use runs in a window and uses OpenGL. I'm thinking chances are I'm going to be giving a big "**** you" to Vista. If turning off the stupid pretty UI's fix the problem then that would be alright, but I'm not putting any money down that everything will be all fine and well. Not when we're talking about Microsoft and OpenGL.
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Old 11-13-05, 06:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

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Originally Posted by Edge
Or they just grudgingly accepted that you wouldn't change it and taught themselves to live with an unneccisary setup. I honestly never found any reason to use the XP UI, especially when it uses more system resources (which I never thought about much until I saw it running on a 600mhz PC I had to reformat at my workplace). Funny thing is, funtionality-wise it doesn't offer many improvements: almost all of the changes are purely cosmetic. And in some cases they reduce efficiency, such as the fading in of folders in the Start bar instead of appearing instantly.

I can't say much about Vista's interface since I haven't seen or tried it yet. But I honestly doubt it will allow for any functionality I don't already have on my Win2k setup.
wrong. I'd specifically give the reason that the XP UI was more productive. Like a good employee, I'd follow up on how people were doing, and most people found XP to be more productive after useing it longer. You can do things faster and more efficently if you make an effort to learn the in's and out's of the interface.

but yeah you do make a valid point if you use 600mhz pc's at work. We use P4's so there isn't a slowdown.
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Old 11-13-05, 06:48 PM   #18
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

The thing is, you're using D3D to power the default Vista UI, and, according to my understanding, you can't run OpenGL natively in an D3D environment unless you want to use a wrapper, which usually results in a decrease in performance. When Vista Final comes out, windowed OpenGL apps will work fine in "classic mode", which doesn't depend on 3D acceleration to function. Or something like that. Let me see if I can scrounge up a link...

Try this
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Old 11-13-05, 06:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

The bigger picture is worse:
M$ Vista cripples OpenGL.
No one writes OpenGL engines any more.
No games get ported to Linux(or Mac).
Linux's hope of being a Home OS for the family dies.

id are really the only game software house using OpenGL and supporting Linux & Mac.
Epic ( supports both APIs at the moment )

M$ failed in the past to kill OpenGL and force everyone to use DirectX because the Mac was so big on CAD and desktop publishing ( Sun X servers also use OpenGL for CAD packages ).
OpenGL was designed for this type of application. On PC when Windows took off M$ bought a company that had a grahpics API, then renamed it DirectX and aimed it at games developers.
Maybe this is why the system requirements for the new Aero style are so high and performance is so slow( hopefully it's just because the drivers are Alpha ) it because the api is designed for games not desktops. It will be interesting to see the results in the KDE, using OpenGL to archive the same effects.
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Old 11-13-05, 07:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightFire
The thing is, you're using D3D to power the default Vista UI, and, according to my understanding, you can't run OpenGL natively in an D3D environment unless you want to use a wrapper, which usually results in a decrease in performance. When Vista Final comes out, windowed OpenGL apps will work fine in "classic mode", which doesn't depend on 3D acceleration to function. Or something like that. Let me see if I can scrounge up a link...

Try this
All well and fine - but not actually witnessed. IE current beta(2) doesn't handle Quake2 let alone Quake3 or Quake4.

Current headline still on www.opengl.org:
Quote:
Microsoft's first technical beta of Vista layers OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an an application runs using a high-performance OpenGL ICD - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience. Write to your preferred software developer, hardware developer and video card manufacturer and tell them to make sure Microsoft solves this problem before release and fully supports OpenGL ICDs within Aero. Hardware and software vendors listen to developers. Don't be passive - send those emails and keep the topic in the foreground
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Old 11-13-05, 07:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

OpenGL will NEVER die becasue of the simple fact that CAD is almost exclusively OpenGL.
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Old 11-13-05, 11:16 PM   #22
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

as with every windows release .. I wait a good 6 months after its out to actually think about getting it. I love XP... untill games stop coming out that work great on it then I dont plan on dumping it
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Old 11-14-05, 02:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

Linux a "home OS for the family" ? ROFL!

A *big* part of a "home OS for the family" would be the ability to go buy anything at a computer store such as a camera, scanner, printer, whatever; and have it just *work* when you get home after plopping the CD in and clicking next next next OK. I suppose it's Microsoft's fault this isn't the case with Linux? Does it have anything to do with OpenGL? No. Linux is a PC enthusiasts and server OS and nothing more. It will never be on a standard desktop operated by a novice who ebays and checks email.
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Old 11-14-05, 06:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: Vista and OpenGL

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilchris
Linux a "home OS for the family" ? ROFL!

A *big* part of a "home OS for the family" would be the ability to go buy anything at a computer store such as a camera, scanner, printer, whatever; and have it just *work* when you get home after plopping the CD in and clicking next next next OK. I suppose it's Microsoft's fault this isn't the case with Linux? Does it have anything to do with OpenGL? No. Linux is a PC enthusiasts and server OS and nothing more. It will never be on a standard desktop operated by a novice who ebays and checks email.
Have you tried Linux lately?
I'd recommend Xandros. It's designed for Windows users.
I plug in my usb camara and up pops an explorer style window with the folders from my camara, just like windows does.
I also configured my printer, using a standard add-printer wizard, it worked fine.
In both cases I didn't need to install any drivers.
In an idea world no hardware will need to ship CD's with drivers for current OS's because they will have used open standards. We are getting there, most camaras and mp3 players use a standard for usb filesystems so no driver is required on XP.

Linux is held back by the "98%(whatever) people use Windows so screw the rest" mentallity of a lot of companys have. Why are so many people using Windows? Because it comes pre-installed on 98% on new PC's

When Linux works it's because people want it to work, when it fails it's because you're either doing something no Linux developer as needed/wanted to work or because you trying to use a device that a hardware company doesn't want to work on Linux and therefore haven't bothered writing a Linux driver or even a good enough technical spec so someone else can write a Linux driver for them.
If hardware companies stick to open standard or produce good quality technically specs for their products then Linux drivers and Linux support will happen.

If it wasn't for about 2 or 3 games I have that use DirectX I'd have switched to Linux at home.
I already know my camara and my wife camara's are okay, my printers fine and our mp3 players are all okay. Even my TVTuner card is working fine.
I have Internet(firefox), email(thunerbird), messenger(kopete & skype), games(quake3,rtcw,doom3,quake4), office(OpenOffice2), image editing(gimp), mediaplayer( serveral ). Only thing I wish is it took less time to boot.
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