X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D.

acrh2 · 01-13-06, 12:23 PM

I have this problem with X-FI Fatal1ty. Maybe someone knows what to do about it...

I'm trying to get 3D positional sound to work through regular stereo headphones using CMSS 3D. The way I have it set up is as follows:
the win xp Control Panel is set to 5.1, X-FI audio console is set to "headphones" or "2/2.1 speakers", and CMSS 3D is enabled at default settings. It does work - the 5.1 sounds from, say, a game is downmixed to stereo with 3D positional effects mixed in (sounds coming from behind are of a different tone, and actually sound like they come from behind). There are problems however.

With "headphones" setting, the sound quality is atrocious - the sound is muddy and boomy. The 3D positional audio effects work great - I can pinpoint every direction from which the sound is coming fairly accurately. Note that without CMSS 3D, the "headphone" setting sounds great.

With "2/2.1 speakers" setting, the sound quality is normal (sounds great on my HD555 headphones), but the 3D positional audio effects are not good - audio control panel in X-FI software allows only a maximum of 120 degrees setting for the angle between the speakers, whereas 180 degrees would be required to simulate 3D effects through headphones (X-FI software has two settings for that actually, (+/-)60 degrees maximum for each speaker, with the reference angle of zero degrees being directly in front of the listener - directly in between the two speakers).

So my questions is this. Has anyone figured out how to either improve the quality of the sound with "headphones" setting, or increase the angles of the speakers to (+/-)90 degrees (180 total) with "2/2.1 speakers" setting?

Superfly · 01-13-06, 01:17 PM

no idea - im still sorting out music playback, hav'nt got near the game mode settings yet.

OWA · 01-13-06, 01:35 PM

It sounds great with my headphones. I don't know what the XP control panel is set to. I just set the X-Fi control panel to headphones and have the CMSS 3D on. No problems to report.

acrh2 · 01-13-06, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OWA

It sounds great with my headphones. I don't know what the XP control panel is set to. I just set the X-Fi control panel to headphones and have the CMSS 3D on. No problems to report.

Please try this. Start playing an mp3. Then open the X-FI audio control panel with the CMSS 3D option. Turn it on and off. Please tell me if you can hear dramatic difference in sound quality.

P.S. Well, I am not 100% sure on this. Don't you have to tell the game somehow that you want 5.1 sound? I know for a fact that many games will not emulate 5.1 sound just on their own.
Even Quake4 needs OpenAL capable sound card for that.

So, I think (I'm guessing) that you pretty much MUST set the windows control panel to 5.1, or all you'll get is stereo.

Superfly · 01-13-06, 02:17 PM

CMSS 3D may well require 5.1 for best output - otherwise whats the point?? - CMSS 3D Headphones is a different animal (is'nt it??)

Im sure its just creating a virtual 3D sound enviroment from whatever the source, be it stereo or proper 5.1 output.

There's a very good chance everything I just posted is complete nonsense.....Im an X-Fi noob.

Superfly · 01-13-06, 02:25 PM

Update:

In game Mode console - with CMSS 3D enabled, whenever I change the speaker setup it Auto changes the CMSS 3D mode - ie: from Headphones to surround if I switch speaker settings from headphones to 5.1. So CMSS 3D works whatever your speaker settings as it auto-configures itself accordingly......

acrh2 · 01-13-06, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superfly

Update:

In game Mode console - with CMSS 3D enabled, whenever I change the speaker setup it Auto changes the CMSS 3D mode - ie: from Headphones to surround if I switch speaker settings from headphones to 5.1. So CMSS 3D works whatever your speaker settings as it auto-configures itself accordingly......

While you post is a little beside the point, I'll answer it. After playing with this sound business for about 10 hours yesterday, I found that each speaker setting is recorded for each speaker set. THX console seems to be responsible for that, and the current settings are stores in a file called THX.ini . Another set of files used for that by the THX console itself have .sbf extension.
I've not found the place where these settings are saved for each configuration. Maybe it's in the registry. All in all, Creative way of dealing with settings doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
But anyway, whatever you saw and thought to be autoconfiguration is simply the X-FI software remembering old settings (deafult in your case).
If you change things around, the audio console will "autocongfigure" itself differently, to what you set, next time.

LTech221 · 01-13-06, 04:22 PM

acrh2 this has always been normal with Creative cards, well the Live it just sounded like that CMSS or not just horrible but your sacrificing sq for positional effects. For other cards like the VIA ENvy when I tried its Sensaura 3d mode it sounded similar if not worse in SQ than teh X-Fi's Headphone CMSS3d mode. I do like the fact though that the HRTF's are vastly improved over the audigy series and sorta remind me of the Aureal 3d Days. I wish the clarity would be normal but I guess we gotta sacrifice something to get that surround effect over headphones.

OWA · 01-13-06, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acrh2

Please try this. Start playing an mp3. Then open the X-FI audio control panel with the CMSS 3D option. Turn it on and off. Please tell me if you can hear dramatic difference in sound quality.

P.S. Well, I am not 100% sure on this. Don't you have to tell the game somehow that you want 5.1 sound? I know for a fact that many games will not emulate 5.1 sound just on their own.
Even Quake4 needs OpenAL capable sound card for that.

So, I think (I'm guessing) that you pretty much MUST set the windows control panel to 5.1, or all you'll get is stereo.

I don't deal with the Windows control panel at all I get positional sound behind me, around me, etc. in games. The only thing I deal with the X-Fi controls. Their 3D test also works fine and I have it set to headphones. I don't know what the Windows CP is set to though. Maybe it is set to 5.1, I'll have to check.

As for MP3s, if that is all you're talking about (i.e. music), I agree. I don't use the 3D option for music since it doesn't sound all that great with fast/upbeat type music especially if there is a lot of bass. I figured that was a limitation of fake surround sound techniques though since it's that way with other techniques that are supposed to expand sound like SRS, etc. For example, my wireless headphones have a fake surround mode and it has the same problem with fast/upbeat type music (boomy and muddled). So, I don't use it for music.

I use these settings: Games - 3D on, Crystalizer off, Music - Crystalizer on, 3D off, Movies - it varies.

wheeljack12 · 01-13-06, 04:42 PM

that is why I picked up these babies. All you guys with the high quality sennheisers,etc. and you have to play around to get the positional sound. Saved myself the trouble with the zalman 5.1' zm-rs6f headphones. If you get the zm-rsa amp, you can have the 5.1 headphones and 5.1 speakers connected at the same time. very nice and easy to use if you don't want to changing wires all the time.

www.zalmanusa.com

acrh2 · 01-13-06, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheeljack12

that is why I picked up these babies. All you guys with the high quality sennheisers,etc. and you have to play around to get the positional sound. Saved myself the trouble with the zalman 5.1' zm-rs6f headphones. If you get the zm-rsa amp, you can have the 5.1 headphones and 5.1 speakers connected at the same time. very nice and easy to use if you don't want to changing wires all the time.

www.zalmanusa.com

I have a pair of Zalmans, as well as a pair of Ezonics. Either one sounds worse than what I'm trying to resolve with "headphones"+CMSS On with HD555.

Superfly · 01-13-06, 06:08 PM

Played 3 hours of CSS with CMSS 3D headphone enabled and had great positional sound, Windows was set to stereo speakers as always and I had my 2.1's plugged into the X-Fi with the headphones comming off the 2.1's (as always).

Used game mode with no Crystalizer or EQ - just set the speaker's to headphones in the game mode panel and enabled CMSS 3D.

worked first time and sounded fantastic.

Its cool that the different "Modes" remember your speaker settings accordingly - ie: headphones for gaming mode and 2.1 for entertainment mode - that saves so much hassle!!!!!

Oh - I have also deleted both of the creative start-up entries (CT Helper and someting else), I have always done this with creative cards - indeed FEAR has an issue with CT Helper if I remember correctly.

01-13-06, 12:23 PM	#1
acrh2 BANNED Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 363	X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. I have this problem with X-FI Fatal1ty. Maybe someone knows what to do about it... I'm trying to get 3D positional sound to work through regular stereo headphones using CMSS 3D. The way I have it set up is as follows: the win xp Control Panel is set to 5.1, X-FI audio console is set to "headphones" or "2/2.1 speakers", and CMSS 3D is enabled at default settings. It does work - the 5.1 sounds from, say, a game is downmixed to stereo with 3D positional effects mixed in (sounds coming from behind are of a different tone, and actually sound like they come from behind). There are problems however. With "headphones" setting, the sound quality is atrocious - the sound is muddy and boomy. The 3D positional audio effects work great - I can pinpoint every direction from which the sound is coming fairly accurately. Note that without CMSS 3D, the "headphone" setting sounds great. With "2/2.1 speakers" setting, the sound quality is normal (sounds great on my HD555 headphones), but the 3D positional audio effects are not good - audio control panel in X-FI software allows only a maximum of 120 degrees setting for the angle between the speakers, whereas 180 degrees would be required to simulate 3D effects through headphones (X-FI software has two settings for that actually, (+/-)60 degrees maximum for each speaker, with the reference angle of zero degrees being directly in front of the listener - directly in between the two speakers). So my questions is this. Has anyone figured out how to either improve the quality of the sound with "headphones" setting, or increase the angles of the speakers to (+/-)90 degrees (180 total) with "2/2.1 speakers" setting?

01-13-06, 01:17 PM	#2
Superfly Retired Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: gone Posts: 4,117	Re: X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. no idea - im still sorting out music playback, hav'nt got near the game mode settings yet. __________________ It is not how bad the problem is, but how badly it's hurting the person who has it......

01-13-06, 01:35 PM	#3
OWA ... Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 10,410	Re: X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. It sounds great with my headphones. I don't know what the XP control panel is set to. I just set the X-Fi control panel to headphones and have the CMSS 3D on. No problems to report.

01-13-06, 02:17 PM	#5
Superfly Retired Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: gone Posts: 4,117	Re: X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. CMSS 3D may well require 5.1 for best output - otherwise whats the point?? - CMSS 3D Headphones is a different animal (is'nt it??) Im sure its just creating a virtual 3D sound enviroment from whatever the source, be it stereo or proper 5.1 output. There's a very good chance everything I just posted is complete nonsense.....Im an X-Fi noob. __________________ It is not how bad the problem is, but how badly it's hurting the person who has it......

01-13-06, 02:25 PM	#6
Superfly Retired Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: gone Posts: 4,117	Re: X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. Update: In game Mode console - with CMSS 3D enabled, whenever I change the speaker setup it Auto changes the CMSS 3D mode - ie: from Headphones to surround if I switch speaker settings from headphones to 5.1. So CMSS 3D works whatever your speaker settings as it auto-configures itself accordingly...... __________________ It is not how bad the problem is, but how badly it's hurting the person who has it......

01-13-06, 04:22 PM	#8
LTech221 Blah Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On A Chair Posts: 152	Re: X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. acrh2 this has always been normal with Creative cards, well the Live it just sounded like that CMSS or not just horrible but your sacrificing sq for positional effects. For other cards like the VIA ENvy when I tried its Sensaura 3d mode it sounded similar if not worse in SQ than teh X-Fi's Headphone CMSS3d mode. I do like the fact though that the HRTF's are vastly improved over the audigy series and sorta remind me of the Aureal 3d Days. I wish the clarity would be normal but I guess we gotta sacrifice something to get that surround effect over headphones. __________________ Gigabyte EP45-UD3P \| Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 \|8 GB G.Skill PC8500 \| BFG GTX260OC \| X-Fi Platinum\| Boston Acoustics CR67/CR57/CS225C hooked to Harman Kardon AVR240 \| HSU STF-8 Sub\| Sennhieser HD580 & PIMETA \| Sony 32XBR9 \| Windows 7 Ultimate

01-13-06, 04:42 PM	#10
wheeljack12 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Hamilton,Ontario,Canada Posts: 460	Re: X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. that is why I picked up these babies. All you guys with the high quality sennheisers,etc. and you have to play around to get the positional sound. Saved myself the trouble with the zalman 5.1' zm-rs6f headphones. If you get the zm-rsa amp, you can have the 5.1 headphones and 5.1 speakers connected at the same time. very nice and easy to use if you don't want to changing wires all the time. www.zalmanusa.com __________________ desktop: Asus P6T deluxe v2 mb, 12gb ddr3-1600 ram, i7-975 3.33ghz cpu, x-fi pci-e fatal1ty titanum, 2 evga gtx 295 co-op ftw's sli, 2 ocz summit 120gb ssd in raid 0, pc power and cooling 1200watt ESA ps, lian-li pc-75 modded case, 2 pioneer bdr-203 8x bluray writers,windows 7 ultimate 64 bit, logitech g19 keyboard, viewsonic vx2433wm 24' lcd, creative gigaworks s750 7.1 speakers, microsoft sidewinder x8 wireless mouse,xbox 360 wired controller for windows

01-13-06, 06:08 PM	#12
Superfly Retired Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: gone Posts: 4,117	Re: X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS 3D. Played 3 hours of CSS with CMSS 3D headphone enabled and had great positional sound, Windows was set to stereo speakers as always and I had my 2.1's plugged into the X-Fi with the headphones comming off the 2.1's (as always). Used game mode with no Crystalizer or EQ - just set the speaker's to headphones in the game mode panel and enabled CMSS 3D. worked first time and sounded fantastic. Its cool that the different "Modes" remember your speaker settings accordingly - ie: headphones for gaming mode and 2.1 for entertainment mode - that saves so much hassle!!!!! Oh - I have also deleted both of the creative start-up entries (CT Helper and someting else), I have always done this with creative cards - indeed FEAR has an issue with CT Helper if I remember correctly. __________________ It is not how bad the problem is, but how badly it's hurting the person who has it......

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