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Old 08-14-02, 09:26 AM   #37
pelly
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DaveW is right...we are definitely being charged an unnecessary premium for LCD's...

Slow-response times and ghosting are two major drawbacks to LCD's...though my main gripe is the insanely-low max resolutions. In order to have any good high-res, I need to spend close to $1000 or more. Granted, they look amazing and I definitely prefer the image quality of the LCD's...

However, I can go out and get a refurb 21" Sony FD or Mitsu-tube for under $300 and have an absolutely stunning looking monitor...

Given that I need to watch my money, the CRT looks to be my next monitor. ( selling old system and 15" LCD ).

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Old 08-14-02, 02:08 PM   #38
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I'm using a cheap generic 'Future Power 5E' monitor right now, 15" vieable, 1024x768@75hz, response time 20ms. Been using it for gaming just fine, not noticed any low FPS or ghosting. It's pretty clear and vibrant, if 17" and such weren't so expensive I'd probably get one myself but I can't live without the higher resolutions
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Old 08-17-02, 05:41 AM   #39
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How do these monitor's compare with the really high end CRT's like Sony G520+?

They still seem far to expensive for what you get to me. I havent looked at the new ones though, maybe they really do look better. I went from a 19 inch Phillips Shadow Mask .26 dot pitch, to this Sony G520 Flat Screen Trinitron .24 pitch, about a year ago, and the quality differnce was huge, the colors on a Trinitron are amazing, it's hard to imagine them possibly being any better. Guess i'd just have to see it to believe. But I bought this G520 for 500 bucks refurbs from ubid.com, and that was almost a year ago. Can't imagine paying 1000+$ for somthing that's hardly better, or perhaps not even as good, space is not a problem for me.

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Old 08-17-02, 12:40 PM   #40
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Well there's the fact that all LCD monitors do not have any refresh rate, thus you won't notice any amount of flicker, so that's a lot easier on your eyes. Even when using 85hz or 100hz on a CRT monitor, your eyes still detects the flicker, although you can't really see it. That's why your eyes still get tired, even on a high end expensive CRT monitor.

LCD monitors also don't have geometry problems like most CRT monitors, since LCD monitors are completely flat. Text on the corners are perfect, the same can't be said for most CRT monitors unless it truly has a flat surface.

A .026 dot pitch LCD monitor with ClearType enabled in WinXP looks significantly better than a 0.24 dot pitch CRT monitor. Text is a lot crisper, and easier to read, even from a distance.

My 17" LCD monitor (Cornea Systems MP704), a 0.26 dot pitch one, sitting next to my 19" Samsung 950p (professional line from Samsung) CRT monitor looks immensely better than the 950p.

I can't say how a 17" LCD monitor compares to a 21" or 22" CRT, but I've heard people say even a 15" LCD monitor looks better than their 21" monitor. See this thread for that statement: http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenT...5&m=4190936913

Most high-end LCD monitors, and some low-end, are coming out with DVI-D or DVI-I inputs, so if you got a video card that supports DVI, then you can plug em in and get a pure digital signal to your video card. This in turn gives you the ultimate in desktop resolution and clarity. This has mixed opinions though, some people notice a difference, some don't. It all depends on your eyes, I guess.

If you have any other questions, check out this great guide for LCD's: http://arstechnica.com/guide/flatpan...tpanels-1.html
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Old 08-17-02, 10:07 PM   #41
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Quote:
Well there's the fact that all LCD monitors do not have any refresh rate, thus you won't notice any amount of flicker, so that's a lot easier on your eyes.
Actually there is a flicker to LCDs. The liquid crystal doesn't flicker, but the backlight does. It flickers at a high rate and its not a strong on-off flicker like on a CRT, but it is there. There are people with a particular sensitivity to flickering lights who still have a problem with LCDs.

Quote:
LCD monitors also don't have geometry problems like most CRT monitors, since LCD monitors are completely flat. Text on the corners are perfect, the same can't be said for most CRT monitors unless it truly has a flat surface.
This is true, also 100% of the screen area is used, a 19 inch really is 19 inches rather than 18.1 or something like with a CRT.

Quote:
A .026 dot pitch LCD monitor with ClearType enabled in WinXP looks significantly better than a 0.24 dot pitch CRT monitor. Text is a lot crisper, and easier to read, even from a distance.
This is only true in the monitor's native resolution. This is fine for a desktop - if I have an LCD with a native resolution of 1280x1024, then I will run my desktop in this res. For games though I want the flexibility of picking other resolutions to tweak performance. If you run something like 800x600 on a 1280x1024 LCD it looks blurry and worse than on a CRT.
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Old 08-18-02, 12:17 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveW


Actually there is a flicker to LCDs. The liquid crystal doesn't flicker, but the backlight does. It flickers at a high rate and its not a strong on-off flicker like on a CRT, but it is there. There are people with a particular sensitivity to flickering lights who still have a problem with LCDs.

This is only true in the monitor's native resolution. This is fine for a desktop - if I have an LCD with a native resolution of 1280x1024, then I will run my desktop in this res. For games though I want the flexibility of picking other resolutions to tweak performance. If you run something like 800x600 on a 1280x1024 LCD it looks blurry and worse than on a CRT.
I didn't know that about the backlight, I thought I did my homework, but looks like you've gone deeper.

The nice thing about using a non-native resolution in games is that you get free antialiasing. I ran 800x600 in Neverwinter Nights, and while the text was slightly blurry, the game visuals were fine to me.
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Old 08-18-02, 01:52 AM   #43
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I thought I would post a little more information on the Dell FP2000 that I received 2 days ago. I mentioned it on the front page, but here's a little more to chew on.

OK, so as my story goes, I started out with the Apple 22", knowing that it probably was a bit dated, given the fact it became available some 3 years ago. But, it _was_ a starting point

The problem was simply in the area of refresh. So, I started doing a little (OK, a lot) digging around, and found the thread over @ ArsTechnica. I read through a ton of those things, and it seemed to boil down to this: Either go with the Dell 20.3" or spend the same amount on the Samsung 210T.

In the end, I decided to get the Dell monitor because they were having a 15% off sale last weekend, Dell has a good reputation, the user feedback was great, and I did save myself some $1600. I pretty much figured that the $$ I save now can be put to another panel in another year or so.

Now that I've had some time to chew on this thing, what do I think of it?

In short, it kicks ass for gaming. I just played a few rounds of Quake2 deathmatch, and this is a good indicator for good gaming, as it relates to LCD's. Lots of fast action, etc. Not a single problem at all. The difference between this thing and the Apple is night vs. day.

Granted, I really wanted something bigger, but I simply cannot accept sub-par gaming, especially on a panel that costs more than $1000.

To this point, I have played just about all the common FPS's:
  • Quake2
  • Quake3
  • RTCW
  • MOH
  • Serious Sam 2
  • Unreal Tournament
  • UT2003

Not one of these things 'failed' the gaming test. No ghosting...No slow response...It pretty much worked as advertised.

As far as 2D is concerned, no problem whatsoever. The nice thing about this monitor is the flexibility. There are far more controls than the Apple (that thing basically gives you zero control, as Apple ensures that it's setup correctly from the get go). This panel also supports the following features:
  • Composite Input
  • S-Video Input
  • DVI/VGA Outputs
  • Picture-in-Picture

Lastly, one other thing that I've been using/doing since plugging this baby in is setting up dual monitor. The CRT was just sitting on the floor gathering dust, so I thought I might give it a go, and see if I liked it or not. In short, dual monitor is one of those features that you might discount...that is, until you try it. As of now, I will probably never go back to a single display. It becomes especially useful if you're any kind of developer (be it graphics, software, engineer, etc.)

Case in point...The project that I'm working on now @ work required me to be able to provide a user interface similar to this older piece of software. I had like 12 screenshots that I snagged from work, and I put them into Paint Shop Pro. I dragged that baby onto the CRT monitor, and then did all of my development over on the LCD. I could glance over, whenever necessary, to ensure that I wasn't forgetting any little UI widget/feature, without having to resize my development environment and/or ALT-TABing.

In fact, now that I have done this little experiment, I can now see how a Parhelia would really kick ass. I kinda wish I could just experience tri-head gaming, as I'm positive it would really make you want this feature.

Anyhow, that about does it...

In summary, I can only offer this piece of advice. If you're looking for something that has some size _and_ doesn't compromise your gaming, then look no further than the Dell 20.3 TFT. You won't kick yourself afterward.

On a totally different note, I also picked up some Logitech Z560 speakers from Frye's today, while returning the apple display. Man, what a difference!

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Old 08-18-02, 03:20 AM   #44
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Typedef, do you have any dead pixels on your FP2000?

I remember doing a ton of research before I bought my LCD. In the end I made my choice, knowing that I had done everything I can to get the best LCD out there (in my price range of course). The only thing you can't control is the number of dead pixels. I ended up with two of those: one always off (not so bad) and one always on, which is annoying sometimes. It's always there... staring at me
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Old 08-18-02, 04:01 AM   #45
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I have found zero dead pixels.

I came about 'this' close to grabbing another LCD today, to be used as my 2nd monitor for doing the dual-head thing...But I kept telling myself that the CRT that I have right now is good enough, and that 1 year from now, significantly better displays will be out, which should allow me to move this Dell into the 2nd monitor category.

I can honestly say that the amount of research I did was, by far, the most of any hardware purchase. There really are so many different things to consider, on top of just 'it's pretty good for games."

If you guys have any questions, just leave them here.
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Old 08-18-02, 05:12 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Typedef Enum
I have found zero dead pixels.

I can honestly say that the amount of research I did was, by far, the most of any hardware purchase. There really are so many different things to consider, on top of just 'it's pretty good for games."
Same here on both counts. My LCD monitor got no dead pixels, and after over a month of use, still none.

It certainly pays to do your homework when purchasing a LCD monitor.
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Old 08-18-02, 02:45 PM   #47
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Hi all!

I'm intrested as well in purchasing an LCD for 2D quality and also for some causal gaming as well. I'm currently looking at 17", 18", and 19" LCD's. However my biggest fear with LCD's is dead pixels. Does anyone an LCD manfacture which has few or none dead pixels in their monitors? Also could I have some recommendations for any of the above sizes of LCD's.

cheers,


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Old 08-19-02, 08:57 AM   #48
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TypeDef:

I think our lives run in parralel.

I also just purchased my first LCD, returned it because of low refresh and bought a higher quality one (Futurepower Power17).

I also bought a set of Logitech z560 speakers while returning the LCD.

I also have had my first taste of Dual monitors on my Radeon 8500 and, quite frankly, I'm never going back.

___

Logitech has really impressed me with these Z560's. Previously, I have been a long time fan of anything by Altec Lansing and was considering the 641's. I decided instead however to buy the Z560's and have not been dissapointed.

Have you noticed that the M3D feature significantly reduces the volume of the rear speakers? In my opinion, this feature should be increasing the volume of the rear speakers.
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