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Old 01-25-07, 04:22 PM   #121
__entropy__
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Yesterday I changed settings to grayscale hinting and as reported by others font rendering is significantly faster now.
It would be great to see this speedup for sub-pixel hinting aswell.
However I'm not very optimistic. Who knows, maybe we see the 6XXX lineup going "legacy" very soon.
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Old 01-26-07, 03:47 AM   #122
Gusar
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

I think the problem here is finding out the cause for this. I use KDE and RGB subpixel antialiasing and experience no slowdown at all, so it's not an issue everyone has. And nvidia can't fix bugs they can't reproduce.

Has anyone from nvidia (netllama?) been able to reproduce this on their machines?
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Old 01-26-07, 07:07 AM   #123
gmichels
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusar
I think the problem here is finding out the cause for this. I use KDE and RGB subpixel antialiasing and experience no slowdown at all, so it's not an issue everyone has. And nvidia can't fix bugs they can't reproduce.

Has anyone from nvidia (netllama?) been able to reproduce this on their machines?
Which nvidia card specifically?
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Old 01-26-07, 12:02 PM   #124
Gusar
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmichels
Which nvidia card specifically?
Yeah, should have mentioned this. My card is the same as yours, Geforce Go 6600.
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Old 01-26-07, 12:46 PM   #125
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusar
Yeah, should have mentioned this. My card is the same as yours, Geforce Go 6600.
Now I'm interested in your setup.

Would you care to share some details of your distro and software versions you're using? Any opengl wms such as beryl/compiz?

Also, is the 6600 Go PCI-E or AGP?
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Old 01-27-07, 03:42 PM   #126
Gusar
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmichels
Now I'm interested in your setup.
Haha

My setup is nothing special really. Distro is Gentoo ~x86, the card is PCI-E, pci-id is 10de:0148 (there are a few different Go 6600 cards, maybe you don't have the exact same one). My xorg.conf is attached.

Other stuff like nvidia driver, kde, freetype, xorg... Specific versions don't make a difference, I've never had problems with any version of those released since I bought this machine (about 2 years ago). As for WM, I use either kwin or beryl, again no difference.

Don't know what else could have an influence, except processor maybe, mine is a Pentium M Dothan.

I wish this info would help, but somehow i doubt it will. The only way this will get fixed is, as I said, if a nvidia employee is able to reproduce this on their machines.
Attached Files
File Type: txt xorg.conf.txt (1.4 KB, 169 views)
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Old 01-29-07, 07:29 AM   #127
gmichels
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusar
Haha

My setup is nothing special really. Distro is Gentoo ~x86, the card is PCI-E, pci-id is 10de:0148 (there are a few different Go 6600 cards, maybe you don't have the exact same one). My xorg.conf is attached.

Other stuff like nvidia driver, kde, freetype, xorg... Specific versions don't make a difference, I've never had problems with any version of those released since I bought this machine (about 2 years ago). As for WM, I use either kwin or beryl, again no difference.

Don't know what else could have an influence, except processor maybe, mine is a Pentium M Dothan.

I wish this info would help, but somehow i doubt it will. The only way this will get fixed is, as I said, if a nvidia employee is able to reproduce this on their machines.
We probably have a very similar setup. I'm also on Gentoo, although x86 stable. My 6600 Go has a slight different pci id (10de:0144) though I don't think it should matter.

As far as the xorg.conf goes, I have these in the Device section which you don't have:
Code:
Option		"RenderAccel"	"true"
Option		"AllowGLXWithComposite"	"true"
Option		"XAANoOffscreenPixmaps"	"true"
Also this on the Screen section:
Code:
Option		"AddARGBGLXVisuals"	"true"
I thought these were needed for beryl. I really can't try disabling these options now cause I'm at work, but I'm going to give a try with your xorg.conf later and will come back with the results, though I'm not so optimistic
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Old 01-29-07, 09:15 AM   #128
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

I was watching this thread for a long time now, however I always used normal font anti-aliasing (no subpixel hinting), because it looks fine on my crt.
I decided to do a little test too. My anitaliasing settings (kde 3.5.6):
Exclude range: 0 - 4 pt
Hinting style: Full

Without sub-pixel hinting:
Fast, kwrite seems very responsive, no slowdown when dragging window over it (with some text in it).

With sub-pixel hinting:
Boy - oh - boy; high cpu usage and choppy rendering. I use polyester kde style, which has nice glow effect on buttons when you pass on them with mouse. Well, this glowing effect was choppy too on buttons like ok, cancel..., probably because of font sub-pixel rendering - without it gui is responsive again.

I have gf6600gt, nvidia 9746 driver.
I tried also with nv driver (opensource) and it seems to be allright even with sub-pixel hinting.
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Old 01-29-07, 11:15 AM   #129
Linuxhippy
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Quote:
Has anyone from nvidia (netllama?) been able to reproduce this on their machines?
Netlama already explained in detail whats the problem.
The problem is that subpixel-AA is currently not accalerated - so data has to be read from video-ram to system-ram (which is REALLY inefficient).
With AGP these "readbacks" were fast enough (but still slow), however PCIe means higher latencies -> not fast enough. It could be accalerated, but isn't.

GTK apps don't show this behaviour because the way GTK renders most (95+%) is rendered in software. NVidias only solution is to sacrifice hardware accaleration of rendering (everything is then done by the CPU in RAM) - so that also text can be read without readbacks.
And now please explain me why I would want a brand new GPU from Nvidia if I would have to put it into Software Mode to get descent 2D performance. Sorry but dumb framebuffer cards are much cheaper.

Das story after all, because as it looks for now this situation won't change. It looks as Nvidia has seen that 2D performance does not generate a lot of revenue (most buy cards as result of Q4 results).

Thats it ... try to generate some negative publicity, maybe then it will be adressed sometimes.

lg Clemens
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Old 01-29-07, 12:14 PM   #130
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

@gmichels & gusar:

i do think gusar does have this issue too. i thought i didn't, until i turned subpixel antialiasing off...

try this:
turn off konqueror preloading
turn on the subpixel antialiasing (RGB, full)
open this webpage in konqi
now turn off the preloading
open this webpage in a new konqi window
resize both konqi's so they each occupy half the screen.
the first one will have subpixel hinting on, the other off.
now move a kwrite or another window over them, and observe the difference.

and tell me nothing is wrong...
i have a freakin' 2.2 ghz dualcore, and it lags seriously, so i'm convinced.

NVIDIA, fix this!!! my fonts look much better with subpixel antialiasing on, and i have a hefty videocard which should accelerate this...
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Old 01-29-07, 01:16 PM   #131
Gusar
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

I just did a little test - I opened a large text file in kwrite and scrolled around, once with aa, once without. Everything was the same, except of course better looking fonts with aa.
Then I looked at cpu usage while scrolling. It's higher with aa, so yes there is a difference. But people here talk like they have a huge visible difference - well, I don't.

@superstoned
Tried that. Same as above - the cpu usage is higher with aa, but no visible difference.

Bottom line is, I see that I'm affected too, but since I don't look at cpu usage all the time, I didn't notice anything until now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linuxhippy
Thats it ... try to generate some negative publicity, maybe then it will be adressed sometimes.
The only thing that will make nvidia do anything is money. Or pressure from one of the large vendors that buy nvidia chips in large quantities. The real solution is nouveau. We just need to be patient and wait for the nouveau driver to mature.
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Old 01-29-07, 02:21 PM   #132
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Default Re: Slow AA text rendering in KDE

Folks Vista is on it's way. The Nvidia software crew is working overtime to get 8800 support for Vista. This is gonna impact our stuff ... get used to it.

KDE sucks hard BTW.
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