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Old 03-13-06, 07:24 AM   #13
Lithorus
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Here's where it becomes tricky:
- 7174 driver doesn't work with kernel >=2.6.15 (7174 is not maintained for recent kernels and causes kernel stack traces: the 8178 was patched to avoid this, but not 7174....)
Actually Ubuntu Dapper uses the 71.74 driver together with the 2.6.15 kernel to support the legacy cards. I would suggest giving Ubuntu Dapper a try.
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Old 03-13-06, 07:54 AM   #14
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Wow,

morgoth hit the hammer on the nail. Couple of things I like to point out.

Loni has always acted in a very professional maner. Even when being flamed. He has always been extermemely centered. My compliments to Loni. So what I am about to say is directed towards nVidia (and not netllama). It is that--at least here--Loni is the "face" of nVidia. And he does represent nVidia. Therefore, the brunt of the hate is directed towards him (unfairly, I might add).

nVidia does not realize the benifits of an opensource driver.

A good example of that is pcHDTV. They made an HDTV capture card. They tried to support their product with custom drivers and works. But ultimately, that was just not working out. For one thing, it required a re-compile of just about every application that used HDTV.

Plus they had to keep their driver updated with the relentless kernel progress. The damn thing would never compile on the "rc" versions of the kernel. Then they "decided" that you can only use 2.6.8 to 2.6.10 kernel with their product. Because they just could not efford the "investment" to keep their drivers up-to-date.

You could probably guess how well that news was recieved. Lets just say some people were "upset".

In the mean while, SuSE labs wrote a clean GPL driver for their product and submitted to the kernel for inclusion. That was included in the kernel 2.6.12.

You should visit their forums now. They get a couple of posts every now and then. It seems like almost no one goes there anymore. Why? Because now, it Just Works(TM). It is included in every kernel.

And that is my point. A GPL driver will actually help nVidia. Because things that get included in the kernel tend to Just Work(TM).

A high performance "2D" only GPL driver will solve a lot of problems. If nothing else, free up a lot of resources so they could be devoted to much needed projects.

Thanks,
-EasyPrey
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Old 03-13-06, 08:44 AM   #15
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Angry Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
Loni has always acted in a very professional maner. Even when being flamed. He has always been extermemely centered. My compliments to Loni. So what I am about to say is directed towards nVidia (and not netllama). It is that--at least here--Loni is the "face" of nVidia. And he does represent nVidia. Therefore, the brunt of the hate is directed towards him (unfairly, I might add).
I agree 100%. People often flame the wrong person because he's the interface with users. That's not the point here.

That's why I really respect Lonni's work and commitment. It's not so easy to be in 1st level support. And even more when you have to deal with people having different distros with different kernels etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
nVidia does not realize the benifits of an opensource driver.

A good example of that is pcHDTV
[...]
And that is my point. A GPL driver will actually help nVidia. Because things that get included in the kernel tend to Just Work(TM).

A high performance "2D" only GPL driver will solve a lot of problems. If nothing else, free up a lot of resources so they could be devoted to much needed projects.
You're right again . I didn't even mention this aspect, starting from the actual situation where all is closed-source (except kernel module where *some* glue code is readable).

There's a choice to be done:

- nvidia could release open source drivers which do not include "sensible" code from their point of view but which could let the Open Source Community deal with common tasks: integration with XOrg, inclusion in kernel, testing etc. The closed-source part could contain OpenGL stuff and an extra X driver (or GLX extension). 50% (or more) support questions wouldn't be posted here.

- keep all the stuff proprietary. Fine. It's NVidia's choice. In this case, everybody deserves good drivers (I didn't say 'perfect'!) in normal timeframes (when new GPU is out) even after window$ drivers. At least, there should be beta drivers for Linux too we could all use between two official releases.

As a conclusion, I think that people would accept easily some bugs on open source drivers. It's the case for Linux Kernel where 1) there's always a bug lying around 2) but where there's always someone to fix it *very* quickly. But having closed source ones lead to more demanding people: "nearly good" is not enough.
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Last edited by morgoth; 03-13-06 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 03-13-06, 08:52 AM   #16
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Angry Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithorus
Actually Ubuntu Dapper uses the 71.74 driver together with the 2.6.15 kernel to support the legacy cards. I would suggest giving Ubuntu Dapper a try.
Same thing for Debian with nvidia-legacy packages. But 7174 doesn't work after 2.6.15.x: there was a change in kernel preventing nvidia kernel module to work correctly. See here

The same patch doesn't exist for 7174. I'm going to patch 7174 to try to make it work with kernel 2.6.15.5. But it's NOT MY WORK: it's NVidia's

Funny smiley by the way. Exceptional fit with situation.

[EDIT]
I forgot: perhaps the mentioned patch exists already somewhere.
But, there's not even a clean advertised repository where we can download patches for various kernel and driver versions: users have to browse a forum thread to find attached patches. This is really not what is called good support: it's just "least bad support".
[/EDIT]
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Old 03-13-06, 10:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morgoth
Same thing for Debian with nvidia-legacy packages. But 7174 doesn't work after 2.6.15.x: there was a change in kernel preventing nvidia kernel module to work correctly. See here

The same patch doesn't exist for 7174. I'm going to patch 7174 to try to make it work with kernel 2.6.15.5. But it's NOT MY WORK: it's NVidia's

Funny smiley by the way. Exceptional fit with situation.

[EDIT]
I forgot: perhaps the mentioned patch exists already somewhere.
But, there's not even a clean advertised repository where we can download patches for various kernel and driver versions: users have to browse a forum thread to find attached patches. This is really not what is called good support: it's just "least bad support".
[/EDIT]
To be honest I haven't tried the legacy package, but the package IS compiled for 2.6.15.x so my guess is that the Ubuntu people have fixed it to work with the 2.6.15 tree. Not trying to defend Nvidia here or anything, just trying to make a constructive suggestion.

Edit:
You can find the diff file here : http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/mi...-kernel-source
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Old 03-13-06, 11:11 AM   #18
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Talking Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithorus
To be honest I haven't tried the legacy package, but the package IS compiled for 2.6.15.x so my guess is that the Ubuntu people have fixed it to work with the 2.6.15 tree.
Going to check. Thanks for info. I'll post a more general patch here if Ubuntu's one is good.

[EDIT]No patch for 7174 concerning vm_insert_page in Ubuntu sources. Patch for 8178 is applied. Beware of surprises here: even if package version is 2.6.15.7, the 7174 driver is not patched a this kernel level: it's simply recompiled => it won't work and will produce the known bug
[/EDIT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithorus
Not trying to defend Nvidia here or anything, just trying to make a constructive suggestion.
Yep. That's really how I take it : tt's not because someone else did NVidia's work that I should be angry ;-). On the opposite, it's a good thing !
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Last edited by morgoth; 03-13-06 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 03-13-06, 11:41 AM   #19
zander
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Please note that the 1.0-7174 NVIDIA Linux graphics driver release is considerably older than 1.0-8178 and is missing a number of changes (in addition to those in the cumulative 1.0-8178 update patch) needed to restore optimal compatibility with recent Linux 2.6 kernels. We hope to release an updated legacy driver release that will support recent kernels out-of-the-box in the near future.
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Old 03-13-06, 12:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zander
We hope to release an updated legacy driver release that will support recent kernels out-of-the-box in the near future.
zander: I know there will be a legacy driver soon. For us, the problem is "in the near future". WHEN ? And meantime, WHY no 8xxx beta ? WHY no answer to developer program subscriptions if beta exist there ?

For the moment we have NO working solution to make a GeForce 6150 work properlly. For a set top box, it's quite annoying: no space to add PCIE card, thermal problems etc.

Why a kernel >2.6.15 with 7174 ? Because of alsa drivers, forcedeth drivers, SATA drivers to make an ASUS/Gigabyte/MSI mobo with Gefore6150/nforce430 work.

8178 is buggy and has many stability problems with GeForce 6150. We can't honestly deliver this kind or product to our customers ! But Nvidia DOES (the more I use this smiley, the more I like it !)
There's even no backup solution or transitional solution.

Having no solution with integrated 6150 on these motherboards, we had to put an additional 6200 expecting it to work with 7174.
That works, but with kernel<2.6.15 as you explain. => this leads to problems with sound, network etc. So we're in a situation where we have to stay in 2.6.14.5 and backport ALL recent kernel drivers to 2.6.14.5 (alsa, forcedeth etc.). This is not clean and you can understand my anger when I hear "new drivers will be released in a few weeks".

Among all, I don't even speak of buggy ASUS bioses that also take months to be fixed (see ACPI problems with A8NVM-CSM just for a buggy character in DSDT tables). ASUS is not better than NVidia. Same consideration for customers.

We have to use recent kernel because or nforce430 and old kernel because of driver 7174: quite difficult to solve, no ?
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Old 03-13-06, 12:36 PM   #21
netllama
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

morgoth,
Which stability problems are you referring to on GeForce 6150 systems?

Thanks,
Lonni
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Old 03-13-06, 12:37 PM   #22
zander
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

@morgoth: if you have problems with 1.0-8178 and the GeForce 6150 aside from the sync-to-vblank CPU usage problem you posted about, please post a bug report. With respect to the updated legacy driver, it will hopefully be released in the next few weeks.
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Old 03-13-06, 01:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by netllama
morgoth,
Which stability problems are you referring to on GeForce 6150 systems?

Thanks,
Lonni
Hi Lonni. Nice to hear from you...

It's basically in this thread

Since early january we experienced also some freezes, some problems with EDID...

I didn't post a message each time we had a freeze: I was just patiently waiting for next driver we all expected "soon". It was reasonable: "let nvidia staff work, and they will release a good driver soon". Yes, but "soon" is too late for our customers...

The biggest problem we face is sync/vblank CPU problem and "black stripes/flashes" both related to sync problem (seems to be solved in internal driver as you stated in your answer). You can admit it's difficult for us to know the problem is identified, fixed and that we can't have it fixed in OUR solution.
That's why we decided to add a 6200 in the box which can be driven by 7174 and that we face problems with 7174 vs 2.6.15.x.

I know how to fix the problem and I could do it: backport vm_insert_page patch for 8178 to 7174. But I'm unable to evaluate the impact on closed source part in kernel. That's why I don't have time or will to do that. If there's no other solution, I'll do it...

Please help us to sell nvidia solutions which work !

Thanks for your answer.
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Old 03-13-06, 01:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: Linux 7600 GT driver when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zander
@morgoth: if you have problems with 1.0-8178 and the GeForce 6150 aside from the sync-to-vblank CPU usage problem you posted about, please post a bug report. With respect to the updated legacy driver, it will hopefully be released in the next few weeks.
zander: Sorry...I'm fed up with bug reports. The problems we face are really easy to reproduce and probably already fixed.

- Sync/vblank CPU usage on 8178: netlama said it was fixed in internal driver (and reproducable with mplayer -vo gl)
- FSAA or ANISO on 6150: just start an openGL program with big textures and you should see the problem
- freezes caused by EDID detection: reports already sent: nothing usable in it
- other random freezes: same reports as previously

The same problems repeated in 2.6.13.x, 2.6.14.x, 2.6.15.x kernels since january.

I can really understand that developping the driver is not so easy. But really, this lack of beta versions between releases is really annoying: if we got a beta in late january, we already could have it tested and give backlog on this forum "yes it works, no it doesn't, why etc.".

Again, don't take my message for you personnaly. It's really a problem between nVidia and Linux users/customers. I appreciate that nvidia people take time to help Linux users (as I try to do also occasionnaly).

Thanks for your commitment.
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