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Old 07-07-06, 05:06 PM   #13
XElef
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zbiggy
I have geforce 6150 .... --enable-svg-renderer=cairo
Well as long as you use cairo to do stuff that X-core rendering is able to perform ... no problem.

But as soon as you do transluscent operations or antialiasing the nvidia driver falls back to software rendering, which is basically a shame because:

1.) The needed driver hookups exist since XFree86 4.0.1, which was release a long, long time ago.

2.) The driver only needs to implement a rendering primitive called trapezoid. Everything else is done on the client, the driver just needs to render trapezoids hardware accalerated.
Not more not less, but if you look at x11perf you'll discver that almost nothing except solid fills are accalerated. No antialiasing, no alpha values. Pretty bad.

Best whishes, Xelf
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Old 07-08-06, 05:02 AM   #14
zbiggy
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by XElef
But as soon as you do transluscent operations or antialiasing the nvidia driver falls back to software rendering, which is basically a shame because:
1) Alphablending was supported in hardware since Riva128 on PCI

2) Antialiasing was supported in hardware since Riva128 on PCI
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Old 07-08-06, 06:28 AM   #15
zbiggy
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

I would like to see a comparison (features/speed) of graphics chips in Linux environment:
-text console framebuffer support
-2D (x.org 6.9.0/7.1)
-video (Xv, XvMC)
-3D (glx, OpenGL)

maybe phoronix will do such big test or other www newspaper.
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Old 07-08-06, 07:53 AM   #16
XElef
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zbiggy
1) Alphablending was supported in hardware since Riva128 on PCI
2) Antialiasing was supported in hardware since Riva128 on PCI
Yes the "gpu" is capable of doing so, but that doesn't mean that the driver really does use this functionality.
At least what X11perf results tell me - this can hardly be the case since for the GPU it should't matter much wether it does paint trapezoids with AA or without, but results are much worse!

And when running "cairogears" its way faster when using the image backend than XRender which COULD be accalerated through the nvidia driver.
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Old 07-08-06, 11:01 AM   #17
zbiggy
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by XElef
Yes the "gpu" is capable of doing so, but that doesn't mean that the driver really does use this functionality.
At least what X11perf results tell me - this can hardly be the case since for the GPU it should't matter much wether it does paint trapezoids with AA or without, but results are much worse!

And when running "cairogears" its way faster when using the image backend than XRender which COULD be accalerated through the nvidia driver.
The same is with purevideo in Linux, MPEG-4 and hardware framebuffer for text console. Just can not imagine why Nvidia give this advatanges to VIA Unichrome without any fight. Now VIA Unichrome is considered to be good for everything except 3D. I know that Geforce is not capable to do in hardware VLD but IQ,iDCT and MC are accelerated in windows so why not in Linux? Some things are done by using shader technology, is it really so hard to port them to Linux if shaders are executed on GPU?
I appreciate Nvidia's tech support which is very good, but can not understand this fear against adding new features to make Geforces more atractive in Linux.
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Old 07-08-06, 10:28 PM   #18
energyman76b
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

it is even worse.

We pay lots of good money for features we can not use.

Nvidia should get their act together or pay their linux-only costumers money back.

That would only be fair.

But fairness has no place in business.
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Old 07-08-06, 10:52 PM   #19
SquireSCA
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by XElef
This was a quite unfriendly thread, however I'll not do it this way.

1.) I would like to ask please to fix the problem with lcd text, it really annoying. I bought a 100$ Geforce 6600 board and now I see performance like using an old P2-233.
That was the reason why I bought the card, to not see performance problems like this, however as it is for now I am using the onboard unichrome chipset as it works many times better than the overpowered nvidia card.
Please fix it, I guess we would have seen fixes years ago if Cleartype on windows would be affected :-/

2.) I did some visual programs (some kind of new UI used in conjunction with special touchscreen, may not say more). They just do some AA'ed fills, sometimes transculescent. It works slow, even unichrome is faster.
X11perf suggests that many render functions don't work well. Please fix this too, as soon as Cairo will be used more and more (GTK already uses it) these functions will be used more and more.
If you do it now you wouldget some positive attention, if you wait as long as possible nobody will notice that nvidia can do what all others do for ages.

an angry customer who has wasted 100$ for a card he doesn't use
The solution is simple:

Stick with Windows until Linux catches up in regards to hardware support and ease of use.

I too want to make the switch to Linux, but I am not willing to downgrade my hardware or cripple it with a lack of driver support. So I will continue to use XP or Vista Beta2 until Linux becomes a viable option.

I have wasted literally weeks of my life trying to get Linux to work for me over the past several years. It never does, unless I am willing to make a lot of sacrifices or compromises, which I am not.

I know that it probably is not what you wanted to hear, but it is the hard fact that I had to finally accept.
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Old 07-09-06, 04:15 AM   #20
Linuxhippy
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquireSCA
The solution is simple:
Stick with Windows until Linux catches up in regards to hardware support and ease of use.
First of all, not Linux catches up but the drivers of the manufacturers catch up.
The solution is even simpler, buy hardware of companies that actually really care about Linux support. XElef mentioned that he is quite happy with UniChrome.

Quote:
I have wasted literally weeks of my life trying to get Linux to work for me over the past several years. It never does, unless I am willing to make a lot of sacrifices or compromises, which I am not.
First of all why do you think anybody is interested in your personal failure story - and why do you call Linux the reason for _your_ failure, when so many others are using it on desktop happily?
What you call "ease-of-use" are in my eyes descisions made for the customers with no way out, however to understand the system itself you need time and you have to be open for new stuff ... if not you are simply not "linux ready".

lg Clemens
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Old 07-09-06, 04:19 AM   #21
Linuxhippy
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b
Nvidia should get their act together or pay their linux-only costumers money back.
That would only be fair.
Well it sounds sad, but I guess NVidia counts the units sold to solaris/linux users and divides the money for development through this. That means 2-5% of driver development money for Linux/Solaris

That would also explain why all the platform-independant funxtionality is that great (OpenGL) and 2D completly sucks (missing important parts of render, _very_ slow subpixel-AA, ...).

I think its at least a bit fair, however I feel fooled when looking at my new PC with LCD monitor!

lg Clemens
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Old 07-09-06, 05:51 AM   #22
zbiggy
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Nvidia does not know how much Linux users really have. Now hardware business just counts how much boxes with OS (Windows, Linux, MacOS, etc) software companies sold or how big orders 3D software rendering companies have for particular OS. The more big orders and the more boxes sold the more effort put in driver development and more feature add to be better than competition who eats market share. This is old, wrong way of counting Linux users because number of boxes are not equal to number of Linux users. For example I use distro which is only available for download as ISO image. What about users who buy Linux with newspaper on DVD? They are not counted too. What about people who use Linux and Windows on the same machine? They still need Linux driver. Linux counter says that Linux community is about 29 million people. This is not small group of people.
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Old 07-09-06, 06:10 AM   #23
nusgnaf
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Does UniChrome works well under linux? I ask this because if I read the faq on http://unichrome.sf.net correctly, the linux driver lacks xvmc support, doesn't this mean that it cannot do hardware mpeg2 acceleration?
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Old 07-09-06, 06:18 AM   #24
zbiggy
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Default Re: 2D accaleration is simply a joke!

Quote:
Originally Posted by energyman76b
it is even worse.

We pay lots of good money for features we can not use.

Nvidia should get their act together or pay their linux-only costumers money back.

That would only be fair.

But fairness has no place in business.
Nvidia loose in such situation. Knowing that 'power features' which are advertised the most (e.g. purevideo in geforce6) are not supported for me (in Linux, does not use Windows) I simply buy the cheapest model instead of the most expensive one. So bought geforce 6150 instead of geforce 6800 and completly ignore geforce7 brand. So I could give Nvidia more money at previous, 6th generation and could pay again to upgrade to geforce7 now. If new generation does not bring me any USABLE features why should I buy new geforce? And I bought geforce 6150 because I changed AthlonXP to Athlon64 not because of geforce6 features.
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