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Old 11-18-06, 01:18 PM   #13
sphincter
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

*tap* *tap* is this thing on?
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Old 11-20-06, 01:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

ahh, the joy.
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Old 11-21-06, 11:05 AM   #15
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphincter
ahh, the joy.
Welcome to the world of Linux hardware. If it works, everything is great. If it does not work, there is no accountability from the manufacturer. Most of them simply provide Linux support as "me-too" or "half-ass". If you talk to your video card manufacturer, they will probably pass the buck to Nvidia. If you ask Nvidia, they will probably pass the buck to the motherboard manufacturer. If you ask the mother manufacturer, they will say they don't provide direct support for Linux. Instead, they will tell you to contact Nvidia for the Linux driver problem. Does that sound familiar?

If you think about it, a simple and reasonable question was asked to Nvidia to provide a sample SLI configuration that they tested successfully in the lab. You would think such answer should be provided by now.
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Old 11-21-06, 11:29 AM   #16
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

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Originally Posted by jeff9n
Welcome to the world of Linux hardware. If it works, everything is great. If it does not work, there is no accountability from the manufacturer. Most of them simply provide Linux support as "me-too" or "half-ass". If you talk to your video card manufacturer, they will probably pass the buck to Nvidia. If you ask Nvidia, they will probably pass the buck to the motherboard manufacturer. If you ask the mother manufacturer, they will say they don't provide direct support for Linux. Instead, they will tell you to contact Nvidia for the Linux driver problem. Does that sound familiar?

If you think about it, a simple and reasonable question was asked to Nvidia to provide a sample SLI configuration that they tested successfully in the lab. You would think such answer should be provided by now.
Which is, sadly, exactly what is both happening (passing the buck) and not happening (telling anyone what was tested). As a customer, and especially as a long-time customer and advocate of Nvidia products, I find this treatment wholly unacceptable. At this point, I don't know whether to laugh, as nvidia and their partners are starting to remind me of old keystone cops comedies, or to be disgusted over the complete lack of respect and co-operation I'm currently receiving. I'll give Lonni, et. al., props for their earlier efforts, but all attempts at follow-through seem to have fallen by the wayside.

Heck, just put me in the driver beta program so we can start getting this stuff resolved. I have the money to go buy different hardware to try under real world conditions, and have a rather extensive lab of my own. Not to mention that I'm used to working with developers, since I'm a team lead for the highest level of support at a software company, and work directly with our developers day in and day out. I just really don't see that that's asking so much. Come on... let's make this work.
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Old 11-21-06, 01:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

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Originally Posted by sphincter
Which is, sadly, exactly what is both happening (passing the buck) and not happening (telling anyone what was tested). As a customer, and especially as a long-time customer and advocate of Nvidia products, I find this treatment wholly unacceptable. At this point, I don't know whether to laugh, as nvidia and their partners are starting to remind me of old keystone cops comedies, or to be disgusted over the complete lack of respect and co-operation I'm currently receiving. I'll give Lonni, et. al., props for their earlier efforts, but all attempts at follow-through seem to have fallen by the wayside.
I know your feeling. The situation is pathetic. It just to show that this "Microsoft eccentric" hardware industry has yet to give Linux the proper support.
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Old 11-21-06, 03:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

I don't know what you can really say.

Sometimes the problems are so overwhelming, you just can't solve every individual problem. At least there is some effort being made and new drivers are being written.

Even though you may not feel like your input is being paid attention to, a good programmer can look at the comments and say, Aha. I know what's going on there. But a hardware programmer is many times limited by the hardware he has available to him. He needs to have that hardware available so he can step through the code and see where it breaks down.
But sometimes you just have to go where the money flows. That's the free market economy. You can't survive, if you can't pay your help.

Maybe they should set up a donation page like the open source community.

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Old 11-21-06, 08:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

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I don't know what you can really say.

Sometimes the problems are so overwhelming, you just can't solve every individual problem. At least there is some effort being made and new drivers are being written.
I agree that validation is very difficult today due to the overwhelming number of platforms, chipsets, processors, video cards, operating systems and 32-bit/64-bit combination. The testing is worsen under Linux due to the large number of Linux distributions and kernels.

But for Nvidia to release a "stable" driver with this bug documented here, it make you wonder what amount of testing is being performed for Linux internally.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=79792

You would think that they should have ran some 3D games to verify the new driver. After all, one of the key reason why users install the binary driver over the open source driver (nv) is the ability to run 3D stuffs.
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Old 11-21-06, 11:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

I saw some effort early on, but now I just see this as being ignored. And it's not like Lonni can say he hasn't been here. He's replying to other threads. And that just pisses me off. No is an answer that, while it won't make me happy, I can accept. Ignoring me just pisses me off and makes me do things like start telling people to skip nvidia when considering new system purchases.
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Old 11-22-06, 10:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

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Originally Posted by sphincter
I saw some effort early on, but now I just see this as being ignored. And it's not like Lonni can say he hasn't been here. He's replying to other threads. And that just pisses me off. No is an answer that, while it won't make me happy, I can accept.
From my experiences, this is a standard communication protocol in this computer industry. If you don't hear anything back, one of the following scenario has occurred:

1) The manufacturer has reproduced the problem but does not have a fix yet.

2) The manufacturer has reproduced the problem but does not think it is important enough to fix it. So they stay quiet and hope that the customer will give up, move on or disappear eventually.

3) The manufacturer is too busy to bother looking into the problem.

4) It is Linux so there is no accountability required. If it works, great. If it does not work, tough luck to you.

Unfortunately, most companies in this industry simply don't show courtesy toward their paying customers. In staying silent, they don't think the customers are important enough to bother with a response. It is very sickening if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphincter
Ignoring me just pisses me off and makes me do things like start telling people to skip nvidia when considering new system purchases.
Others might tell you that switching to ATI is not pretty either because their Linux driver is not any better. Matrox solution is out of the question since they have fallen so behind in the 3D market and their Linux driver is even worst. The Intel onboard graphic solution has limited performance and useability.

Personally, I think Linux graphic support on the desktop is still poor and half-ass supported.
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Old 11-22-06, 11:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

sphincter,
I'm sorry if you feel that I'm ignoring you, however that is not the case. I answered your questions to the best of my ability. However, I cannot recommend specific vendors, and posting our internal test plan, which includes specific vendors, falls under that umbrella.

As I stated earlier, we test with vendor's systems who explicitly support Linux, however we also test with some motherboards from vendors who do not explicitly support Linux, and do occasionally run into problems which are due to BIOS problems. That's as specific as I can be.

Thanks,
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Old 11-22-06, 11:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

So... you test. Thanks, but that doesn't help me. And I don't "feel" like you're ignoring me. You have been. If you hadn't, it wouldn't have taken so long to get this non-answer answer. I also do support, and we explicitly publish what has been tested in order to provide guidance to our customers. That's what customers want. And if you won't give the customers what they want, they'll find someone who will. That's basic market economics, and all your policies won't change that. Because, while I do have the money to go buy different hardware, and quite a bit of it, I'm not going to go buy board after board just because your company is discourteous enough to fee justified in leaving me in the dark. I'll just switch vendors.
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Old 11-22-06, 11:59 AM   #24
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Default Re: new board, new driver, same old problems

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Originally Posted by netllama
sphincter,
I'm sorry if you feel that I'm ignoring you, however that is not the case. I answered your questions to the best of my ability. However, I cannot recommend specific vendors, and posting our internal test plan, which includes specific vendors, falls under that umbrella.
Lonni,

I don't understand why Nvidia cannot provide their customers with sample SLI system configuration that works well in your lab. If you are testing on a secret unannounced platform, then it is understandable that such information cannot be released. Otherwise, why are you afraid to provide the system information?

We are not asking for any trade secret here. If you say Abit board, are you afraid ASUS will be upset that their board is not mentioned? If you say ASUS video card, are you afraid that PNY will be upset that their board is not mentioned?
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