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Old 02-27-03, 10:07 AM   #25
kyleb
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actually it is ~8% more unfair in a strictly bit-to-bit analytical sence if you want to get into it Chalnoth. also the visual differences between the 3 levels of precision is something that deserves investigation when such claims are made. unfortunately none of us "regular" people has been given the chance to see then nv30 do fp32 and fp16 and we don't know how much int12 is going on either so then whole discussion is purely academic at this point.
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Old 02-27-03, 10:13 AM   #26
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Originally posted by randsom
ya know, this whole thing of which card will run d3 faster, is fairly pointless, if the game was coming in may this would be a diiferent story, but the games been pushed back to late oct/early nov(which means a christmas release), there are much faster cards on the horizon.i dont how many of you are hardware junkies like me, but ill bet that by oct/nov neither of these cards will be in my box.
That's why when I hear people say that the NV30 will run future games faster I just laugh.

I want a card that run's todays games faster. Future games will be played on my future card.
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Old 02-27-03, 10:21 AM   #27
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Originally posted by kyleb
actually it is ~8% more unfair in a strictly bit-to-bit analytical sence if you want to get into it Chalnoth. also the visual differences between the 3 levels of precision is something that deserves investigation when such claims are made. unfortunately none of us "regular" people has been given the chance to see then nv30 do fp32 and fp16 and we don't know how much int12 is going on either so then whole discussion is purely academic at this point.
Well, I can pretty much guarantee you that JC is not going to be using an integer format (framebuffer aside). The benefits of moving to floating-point are just too great. Not only that, but he's been going ga-ga over the possibility of using floating-point...

As an aside, I do think it's kind of funny that so many people seem to be ready to consider FP16 absolutely inferior to FP24. In particular, remember all of the 16-bit vs. 32-bit arguments of the past, back with the Voodoo3 vs. TNT2 Ultra?

Now, as then, there are always going to be differences, but I still feel that 16-bit FP is enough for most any color calculations, but the differences may become apparent for non-color data pretty quickly.

In particular, remember that it's the dark end of the spectrum that needs more accuracy, and 16-bit FP offers higher and higher accuracy (i.e. fewer visible errors) as the image gets darker.

One other thing to keep in mind is that 3DMark03 uses PS 1.4 for most of the shaders in their tests. PS 1.4 doesn't have the accuracy of FP16. So is there a reason to use FP32 in 3DMark03?
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Old 02-27-03, 10:42 AM   #28
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ohh i don't know, i am not going "ga-ga" over anything; i will reserve judgments on how much it matters untell i can see such things for myself. i was just sticking to what i do know in that comment, as i genrealy try to do.
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Old 02-27-03, 10:54 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chalnoth
Well, I can pretty much guarantee you that JC is not going to be using an integer format (framebuffer aside). The benefits of moving to floating-point are just too great. Not only that, but he's been going ga-ga over the possibility of using floating-point...

As an aside, I do think it's kind of funny that so many people seem to be ready to consider FP16 absolutely inferior to FP24. In particular, remember all of the 16-bit vs. 32-bit arguments of the past, back with the Voodoo3 vs. TNT2 Ultra?

Now, as then, there are always going to be differences, but I still feel that 16-bit FP is enough for most any color calculations, but the differences may become apparent for non-color data pretty quickly.

In particular, remember that it's the dark end of the spectrum that needs more accuracy, and 16-bit FP offers higher and higher accuracy (i.e. fewer visible errors) as the image gets darker.

One other thing to keep in mind is that 3DMark03 uses PS 1.4 for most of the shaders in their tests. PS 1.4 doesn't have the accuracy of FP16. So is there a reason to use FP32 in 3DMark03?
no doubt 16 bit IS useful but remember that mathematically.. the first 6 bits are already assigned for other purposes so for all intents and purposes 16bit is really 10 bits... when you look @ it like that you will see there is a lot more headroom with 24bit than 16bit FP... 32bit FP is good... no doubt but I would have to wonder whether in order to get playable framerates with info stored using 32bit FP is going to be feasible?

that being said I do agree that 16bit FP is not as bad as it is made out to be.. but there are distinct advantages as well...

due to modern architecture/core clocks as well as the quality of games... I don't think you can truly compare arguments concerning voodoo and tnt2 cards with todays lineup either
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Old 02-27-03, 10:56 AM   #30
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Originally posted by Sazar
due to modern architecture/core clocks as well as the quality of games... I don't think you can truly compare arguments concerning voodoo and tnt2 cards with todays lineup either

besides, if you did it would be rather shady to discount nvidias view on the situation which was most defnatly "more is always better".
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Old 02-27-03, 11:01 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by kyleb
besides, if you did it would be rather shady to discount nvidias view on the situation which was most defnatly "more is always better".
unless yer talking about a godawful amount of crap

THAN more is not always better... hmm... well if it was fertilizer...

/me wanders off to contemplate...
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Old 02-27-03, 11:55 AM   #32
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Chalnoth
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Now, as then, there are always going to be differences, but I still feel that 16-bit FP is enough for most any color calculations, but the differences may become apparent for non-color data pretty quickly.
The problem with you making statements like this, is that if the Shoe was on the Other Foot. you would be talking about how inferior FP16 was. You would even be talking about how inferior FP24 was if the Nv30 has deliverd FP32 as promised.

I could post a handfull of quotes from you Right now from B3D from about the Time of the R300 launch where you Question wether the R300 should even be considered a True DX9 card. All becuase of its 96bit color.

Things you say hold about as much weight as a leaky bucket of Water. You completely 180 your positions not based on their Technical merrit, but SOLEY on wether its the current thing Nvidia PR is pushing.
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Old 02-27-03, 12:07 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Hellbinder
Chalnoth

The problem with you making statements like this, is that if the Shoe was on the Other Foot. you would be talking about how inferior FP16 was. You would even be talking about how inferior FP24 was if the Nv30 has deliverd FP32 as promised.

I could post a handfull of quotes from you Right now from B3D from about the Time of the R300 launch where you Question wether the R300 should even be considered a True DX9 card. All becuase of its 96bit color.

Things you say hold about as much weight as a leaky bucket of Water. You completely 180 your positions not based on their Technical merrit, but SOLEY on wether its the current thing Nvidia PR is pushing.
based on things I read on this forum as well as b3d... I would say that is partially accurate...

but chalnoth also does post some interesting insights as well

I would not hold this against him.. though some of the arguments I see chalnoth place do seem to be a little confusing @ best...



still thats what engenders debate and we all learn...

IMO though for todays processing... 24bit is fine... specially since the r300 is doing all its fp calcs using 24 bit instead of flippin to 16 or 32 depending on the situation...

call me a romantic... but I love standardisation... it is a more efficient way of doing things...
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Old 02-27-03, 12:18 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Sazar
no doubt 16 bit IS useful but remember that mathematically.. the first 6 bits are already assigned for other purposes so for all intents and purposes 16bit is really 10 bits... when you look @ it like that you will see there is a lot more headroom with 24bit than 16bit FP... 32bit FP is good... no doubt but I would have to wonder whether in order to get playable framerates with info stored using 32bit FP is going to be feasible?

that being said I do agree that 16bit FP is not as bad as it is made out to be.. but there are distinct advantages as well...

due to modern architecture/core clocks as well as the quality of games... I don't think you can truly compare arguments concerning voodoo and tnt2 cards with todays lineup either
Possibly the most level-headed comment in this thread. I think you hit the nail on the head here.
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Old 02-27-03, 12:21 PM   #35
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Originally posted by Sazar
based on things I read on this forum as well as b3d... I would say that is partially accurate...

but chalnoth also does post some interesting insights as well
Yes he does. Just wish I didn't have to wade through so much PR BS-type posts to uncover it.
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Old 02-27-03, 12:24 PM   #36
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lol, ya it seems prety clear that he is no idiot; but i can't help but keep getting the feeling he is trying to play me for one.
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