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Old 02-27-03, 02:48 PM   #37
Nv40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazar
no doubt 16 bit IS useful but remember that mathematically.. the first 6 bits are already assigned for other purposes so for all intents and purposes 16bit is really 10 bits... when you look @ it like that you will see there is a lot more headroom with 24bit than 16bit FP... 32bit FP is good... no doubt but I would have to wonder whether in order to get playable framerates with info stored using 32bit FP is going to be feasible?

that being said I do agree that 16bit FP is not as bad as it is made out to be.. but there are distinct advantages as well...


the problem with all the pixel shaders precision
that both NV30 and R300 cards offer in Doom3
which are FP16 (64bits) , FP24 (96bits) and FP32(128bits) is that ..

1)Doom3 engine and game was designed in the Geforce3 ,so any extra in imagequality for the Nv30 and R300 will be just a minor tweaks,because they arrived much later in the development of Doom3.

just look at carmack own comments..

Quote:
It is going to require fairly deep, non-backwards-compatible modifications to
an engine to take real advantage of the new features, but working with
ARB_fragment_program is really a lot of fun, so I have added a few little
tweaks
to the current codebase on the ARB2 path.
.................................................. .........

There are some more things I am playing around with, that will probably remain
in the engine as novelties, but not supported features:

------------------------------------------------
The R300 can run Doom in three different modes: ARB (minimum extensions, no
specular highlights, no vertex programs), R200 (full featured, almost always
single pass interaction rendering), ARB2 (floating point fragment shaders,
minor quality improvements,
always single pass).


2)Doom3 is a dark game , a very dark one , absence
of light is everywhere ,so for that kind of games even
the precision of a Geforce3 or radeon8500 will be just
fine.

3)you need precision for lights ,not for darkness and
not for shadows , black is black .
highly reflective surfaces is when precision is a must ,
like the Nvidia TRUCK demo ,something is not going to
happen in Doom3 or any other game anytime soon.

4)realistic soft shadows are the result of precision in
lights , and doom3 doesnt have soft shadows ,and
most of the lights in the game are in motion,
(bath scene) or blinking on or off. so precision is useless there.

5)the NV30 can do 64bits precision (FP16) which was
what John carmack asked ,for his future games ,
and i dont think he was thinking in doom3
a PS1.3/1.4 game simulation in OPEnGl ,when he
asked for that.

the R300 can do 96bits(fp24) but it will be
invisible extra precision againt Nv30 64bits(Fp16)
that no one will be able to see ,not in a game like
Doom3 ,who was originally designed in a Geforce3
technology.

carmack asked for 64bits precision , because
he saw that 32bits was not enough for some
scenarios when there is FAR distance and lights can
can show some graphical errors. something that you
are not going to see in doom3 ,a close combat game ,
with close walls everywhere .


so i agree ,that for Doom3 its not a BIG! issue
which path video cards runs the game ,not for IQ.
the only issue will be for benchmarking purposes .
but i think that 64bits(fp16) its just more than enough
precision for ->doom3 ,the same way 32bits in a tnt2
was more than enough precision for QUake2.

so i think it would not be possible in the future to compare apples vs apples comparison between
ATI and NVdia in games that use FP color precision .
so the only thing we can do is play both cards
at a precision at the best IQ/performance combo.
and that is in the NV30 -64bits(fp16) and
R300 96bits(fp24),because as i have already said
FP16(64bits) is more than enough for the games
we are going to see in a couple of more years.

64bits ,96bits and 128bits precision and beyond it
will be more usefull in FAR FUture games ,with cinematic
stylist look and quality ,but thats not something we
will see anytime soon , being optimistic maybe until Aquamark3,Doom4 or UNREAL 3.

the only thing that will be more usefull in the
close future are a video cards with support for
very long pixel shaders /vertex shaders intructions.

Last edited by Nv40; 02-27-03 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 02-27-03, 06:55 PM   #38
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doom III is a dx8 game... AFAIK... therefore it SHOULD work just fine with all the instruction sets in the gf3 and r200 lineups

you point out a lot of nice info...

however... let the thing is doom III is going to be a heavy hitter MAINLY because of bump-mapping (dx7 feature AFAIK... but heavy duty usage) and dynamic lighting... and shadows created due to this...

hence you ARE looking @ low frame rates regardless of what you are going to be playing with taken from the current crop of cards... ie... the 9700pro et al...

nvidia keeps touting the gf FX as having the inherent ability to run doom III far better than the r300... which will have to be seen... remember that nvidia does have a knack of picking up very selective results... if they are running one scene faster than the 9700pro... that will be touted by the PR brass as indicative of god-like performance I feel...

but anyways... all this discussion and the results of an alpha are what we are going by... heck the alpha is not indicative of what the beta is like in many ways
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Old 02-27-03, 07:49 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
The problem with you making statements like this, is that if the Shoe was on the Other Foot. you would be talking about how inferior FP16 was. You would even be talking about how inferior FP24 was if the Nv30 has deliverd FP32 as promised.
Hellbinder, I was talking about how I didn't think FP32 would be useful quite a bit before the release of the Radeon 9700 Pro. Some others pointed out the non-color data problems, but I still think that color data will, in the vast majority of situations, show no improvement above FP16.

Quote:
I could post a handfull of quotes from you Right now from B3D from about the Time of the R300 launch where you Question wether the R300 should even be considered a True DX9 card. All becuase of its 96bit color.
Be my guest. I always said 96-bit should be enough for nearly everything.

You're imagining things, Hellbinder.
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Old 02-27-03, 08:31 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbirney
you really must be joking right?

Which out of the 5 rendering paths did the nV30 use? What path did the R300 take? Did you happen to really read the .plan file by JC last month?
I used to mention once or twice years ago how games may yield misleading results. I used Quake II as an example back then.

Today, JC mentions "paths" in his .plan making it obvious that coding for specific video card can be done to boost performance.

And such games (alpha, beta, or final retail) can not be reliable benchmarks.
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Old 02-27-03, 08:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chalnoth
No more unfair than benchmarking 24-bit vs. 32-bit.
Who said it was?

Christ, Nvidia's PR dept. should send you weekly checks. Or are they already?
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Old 02-27-03, 09:31 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Reynolds
Who said it was?

Christ, Nvidia's PR dept. should send you weekly checks. Or are they already?
John, I believe in comparisons that are done like this:

Both cards at maximum possible IQ, resolution of >=1024x768.
If the R300 can't do 32 bit than tough luck, if the NV30 is running at 2fps then tough luck.
If you want to see performance at max IQ (on both cards or any for that matter) then you have no choice but to do that.
I play ALL games at max IQ possible at 1024x768 on my PC and none of them are slow. From MW to UT2.003*10^3.

BTW: That's how I ran my NV20 and that's how I run my R300. (max IQ possible)
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Old 03-01-03, 02:17 PM   #43
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I think I can safely guess that all of us are finished playing Doom 3 alpha. That's the extent of relevance for this discussion and this benchmark. The alpha version of Doom 3 is not representative of the release version, 'nuff said.
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Old 03-01-03, 02:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by hithere
I think I can safely guess that all of us are finished playing Doom 3 alpha. That's the extent of relevance for this discussion and this benchmark. The alpha version of Doom 3 is not representative of the release version, 'nuff said.
I haven't played the alpha yet

couldn't be bothered dling a warezed game which was not even beta..

not worth my bandwidth... not that gung-ho over a coupla levels...
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Old 03-01-03, 05:13 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazar
I haven't played the alpha yet

couldn't be bothered dling a warezed game which was not even beta..

not worth my bandwidth... not that gung-ho over a coupla levels...
See? Finished before you even started, just like i said...
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Old 03-02-03, 02:37 AM   #46
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another one ,about the diference in imagequality
between the NV20/R200 (old 32bits color) in
-> Doom3 versus the Extra FP pixel shaders precision of NV30(32/64/128bits) and R300 (32/96bits) .


Quote:
Reverend: " What about the difference between NV30+NV30-path and R300+R200-path in terms of performance and quality?"

Jcarmack: "Very close. The quality differences on the ARB2 path are really not all that significant, most people won't be able to tell the difference without having it pointed out to them."
so thats why i think that if even "most people" will not be able to notice the diference in image quality
between NV20/r200 in 32bits vs R300 in 96bits.
the FP16 (64bits) of the NV30 will be more than
enough for ->Doom3.

in fact i believe that most people that cannot notice this diference will run the Geforcefx and the Radeon9700pro in the NV20/r200 path just to increase the performance
of the already slow performance of Doom3.

FP color precision will be more usefull in
future games..
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Old 03-02-03, 02:38 AM   #47
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i dont think John Carmack would aprecate you calling his code slow.
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Old 03-02-03, 11:01 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by kyleb
i dont think John Carmack would aprecate you calling his code slow.
What if I call his games boring?
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