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Old 01-04-07, 06:48 AM   #1
Perty
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Default Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

Hi!

I have just red a report on the Windows Vista Content Protection and if I undstand it correct in the next gen, hdmi capable gfx cards, there is a lot more code going in.

I'm very worried that the gfx cards and drivers from NVidia will be made for Vista foremost and the Linuxdrivers would not be able to use for example Blue-Ray, HD-DVD with the HDMI.

As Vista has included a lot of functionality in the OS to se too that there is no "leakage" of protected content, I just wonders how the future of Linux and the NVidia cards and drivers will look like? According to the the article (link below) all the OS's that will use the latest technology is affected to the new and more advanced encryption functionality.

Are the Linux platform for Premium content and HiRes ouptut throuh HDMI doomed?

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt

Any comments/thougts?

/Perty
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Old 01-04-07, 11:39 AM   #2
am2020
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

I seriously hope not. If that was true I will stop recommending the nvidia cards to my company for gpgpu or anything else...
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Old 01-04-07, 12:07 PM   #3
pe1chl
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

This is not an issue of NVidia drivers for Linux, it is an issue of content providers who decide that they don't want to sell their content to people who did not also buy products from Microsoft.
That is entirely their decision. They do not want you to buy their product.

If this means the end of Linux, I think probably not. It could mean the end of some media companies just as well.
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Old 01-04-07, 01:23 PM   #4
Lithorus
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

My laptop (7600GT GPU) have a HDMI output and this is the output I get in my Xorg.log :
"Supported display device(s): CRT-0, DFP-0, DFP-1, DFP-2, TV-0"

DFP-0 is my laptop screen, one of the other DFP's is the DVI in my dockingstation and I would figure that the last DFP is my HDMI. So to me it looks like HDMI is already supported in Linux. I've tested the HDMI port once with a 46" Sony LCD which worked fine with blu-ray using Windows XP. Didn't have the time to test it in Linux I think alot of the restrictions are up to the players.
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Old 01-04-07, 01:27 PM   #5
pe1chl
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

I think it will not be a problem to support HDMI in Linux for the purpose of connecting to a HDMI display.
What is a problem is to provide a player for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray that provides a trusted path between the dvd and the screen. This involves all kinds of certifications that the parties involved are not prepared to issue to open-source developers.
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Old 01-04-07, 01:47 PM   #6
Perty
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pe1chl
This is not an issue of NVidia drivers for Linux, it is an issue of content providers who decide that they don't want to sell their content to people who did not also buy products from Microsoft.
Well I hope you are right but I'm not convinced. I'll quote some:

From output_protect.doc from http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device...t_protect.mspx
Quote:
HFS: Hardware Functionality Scan
Authentication is required for PVP-OPM and PVP-UAB, because a hacker might try to introduce a hardware emulator device that behaves like the graphics chip—for example, leaving unprotected digital outputs turned on while reporting that they’ve been turned off.
To prevent this, the vendor-supplied driver must authenticate the graphics chip, to determine that it is talking directly to the proper graphics chip.
So only this little snippet, is telling me that there must be some code even in the Linux driver to apply to this protection. Maybe this isn't an issue, but there will be more closed and more advanced drivers which is ofcourse more buggy.

Quote:
2.5.1 Circuit Board Implementations for Hardware Robustness

Graphics cards (or motherboards, for integrated graphics) need to conform to Content Industry Agreement hardware robustness rules. There must be no easy places for a hacker to use hardware to snoop the content. The graphics chip manufacturer must attest that the Content Industry Agreement rules have been met for any third-party board manufacturer implementations that will use their chip-and-driver combination.
There is going to be some hardware standards NVidia and other must meet to allow this content to be played. This standard is not for the consumer/os best it's for the content industry's best.

We'll continue...

Quote:
2.5.2 Recommended Practices for Hardware Robustness

It is the responsibility of the graphics hardware manufacturer to interpret the Content Industry Agreement hardware robustness rules. However, Microsoft has several recommendations to help ensure robust output content protection.

Integrated TV-out
Integrated TV-out circuitry on the graphics chip should be used, rather than an external chip. Using a custom external chip that doesn’t have a published pin-out interface is also a viable option. Another good option is using a chip package that doesn’t have user-accessible pins (for example, pins underneath the package). These recommendations also apply to SCART encoders.

No video side port
The use of a video side port in output mode, with a published pin-out, is not recommended. It is a particular problematic design if the side port is used as a mechanism for attaching external digital encoder chips.

Integrated DVI circuitry
Integrated DVI circuitry on the graphics chip should be used, rather than using an external chip. Using a custom external chip that doesn’t have a published pin-out interface is also a good solution, as is using a chip package that doesn’t have user-accessible pins.

On-chip DVI to advance DVI adoption
Not using external DVI chips makes it less likely for DVI to be made an optional item on graphics cards, which would slow adoption of DVI and HDMI. The wide adoption of DVI and HDMI, both with HDCP, is important to the PC platform being safer for premium content.

HDCP applied inside the graphics chip
It is preferable that HDCP is applied inside the graphics chip, to remove the need to route unprotected digital signals to an external DVI chip.
So... This agreement is not only affecting Windows Vista users it's affecting everyone who want to have a graphicscard in the future. As I see it NVIdia has to confirm to this Content Industry Agreement. And this agreement is is telling the manufacturers how to implement the hardware layout. I'll bet this makes it more expensive and not more easy to implement. This is clearly not recomendations which takes the consumer/buyer the best experience with the product.

I really hope this is only for HDMI and HD-DVD /BlueRay of premium content. If all the gfx cards and drivers is going to include all of this crap there is not going to be a good Linux driver (I think).

So either the Linux Community will not be able to watch on HD-DVD and Blue-Ray or I'm totaly wrong in my assumptions.

I really hope NVIdia will continue to create good gfx cards without HDMI/Content Protection and only DVI output which don't have all this crap.

/Perty
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Old 01-04-07, 01:53 PM   #7
Lithorus
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

But these are only recommendations, not actual requirements.

Either way I still haven't been able to view blu-ray inside Vista yet. PowerDVD complains that the driver is not good enough even though their check program says it's ok. Proabably rolling that installation back to XP. Far from impressed by Vista.

Edit:
And why does MS use the term "hacker" anyway?
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Old 01-04-07, 02:15 PM   #8
Perty
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithorus
But these are only recommendations, not actual requirements.

Either way I still haven't been able to view blu-ray inside Vista yet. PowerDVD complains that the driver is not good enough even though their check program says it's ok. Proabably rolling that installation back to XP. Far from impressed by Vista.

Edit:
And why does MS use the term "hacker" anyway?
Yes I know there are recommendations but, if you mess upp your driver or card the card could be revoked and will be restricted to play hd-content on so I say that it is more than just recommendations.

I think you should go to the store and get the money back for your br-disc and your laptop. Money talks.
I think we just have seen the start of the trouble with "Premium Content".

/Perty ,not yet convinced...
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Old 01-04-07, 02:19 PM   #9
pe1chl
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perty
So either the Linux Community will not be able to watch on HD-DVD and Blue-Ray or I'm totaly wrong in my assumptions.
I think it is perfectly clear that there will be no (legal) HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback in Linux. But that is not much different from the DVD situation, where we also can playback only because the system was hacked, and this is not legal eiter. Maybe (probably) the HD system will be hacked as well.

However, I am not so sure that this is a problem for Linux or NVIDIA or graphic cards in general.
Cards constructed to the recommendations or requirements of the media industry should still be capable to do the things they can do today. So nothing is really changing, except when you have changed requirements (playback of HD material on Linux) that the media industry is unwilling to provide to you.

That is an issue between you (the customer) and the media industry. When they do not want you to play DVD outside their own defined environment (certified players and displays) and you don't want to setup such an environment, your only choice as a customer is not to buy their products.
But you can still browse the internet, edit your documents, play your SD TV content, etc. I don't see how that is going to change.
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Old 01-04-07, 02:37 PM   #10
Perty
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pe1chl
... I don't see how that is going to change.
You are probobly and hopefully right, my fear is that there won't be any options in a year or two not to get a HDMI enabled card which require all this stuff and even if it is not used there will be problems with drivers due to a lot of restrictions.

As long as there will be commitment for the DVI output and large TV's with DVI input I'm not worried, but I don't know how the market is going about this.

/Perty
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Old 01-05-07, 09:01 PM   #11
zbiggy
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

I think DVI-D is great thing and I will keep it using because it has everything I need.
I do not see any reason to pay more for HDMI which I do not need. Just keep asking in shop for DVI-D and refuse to buy HDCP products.

If video pirates would try to copy movies they simply put HDTV video camera in front of HDTV tv set.

I think all these 'security' technologies are just made for killing GNU/Linux and other free/open alternatives. M$ needs to preserve IT world domination by forcing closed 'standards'. The users of older M$ software (like Win XP) are also forced to buy Vista to keep up with new video formats. People are blind and do not think where such behaviour can drive them. M$ as usually will win, ordinary people will pay for this victory.
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Old 01-05-07, 09:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Vista trouble for NVidia LinuxDrivers?

People seem to be confusing HDMI and HDCP. HDCP is the encryption one which is gonna cause problems for us. HDMI is just DVI with digital audio basically two things combined and its a different type of cable and at the moment I already have a hardware setup for HDCP but not software. Both my 8800 GTX and my Dell 3007WFP should support HDCP I believe. Only the newer monitors/vid cards support this.
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