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Old 08-22-02, 07:42 PM   #13
Megatron
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Im just curious as to your feelings on the Gf4/3Dmark "bug" Legion?
Would this be a similar case?
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Old 08-22-02, 09:02 PM   #14
John Reynolds
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Quote:
Originally posted by legion88
People with integrity would never knowingly accept results where specialized routines were used to boost up performance at specific benchmarks unless, of course, they can show that the competition was also using specialized routines.
Exactly how do you think Nvidia was getting higher scores in 3DMark with the splash screens on? Here's a hint: "specialized routines were used to boost up performance at specific benchmarks" would be my guess. Those routines were probably detecting the specific texture size of those screens and using that time to flush all caches and memory. Can I prove this? No, but I think it's a fair and logical guess, and the fact does remain that the scores were affected by those screens.
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Old 08-22-02, 09:29 PM   #15
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"Oh, did you conveniently forget that HyperZII wasn't working out of the box on the Radeon 8500 in OpenGL? Oh, how convenient. Typical but convenient."

source?

did you conviently forget that nVidia themselves edited Radeon's drivers, hacked ATi's site and put them up to make ATi look bad with the Quack thing?

yea thats right.. without a source I can make up the most insane bull**** I want.. and it wouldn't be any different then what you're saying..

and saying nVidia "optimized" their drivers to work better with 3dmark and ATi "Cheated" with quake3 is nothing more then a sad double standard..

NVIDIA RULES IT GETS 100FPS IN THIS GAME
ATi is alright.. but I was expecting more then 100fps in that game :\
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Old 08-22-02, 09:48 PM   #16
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ErrorS,

i can understand your skepticism, but fanATIcs have used that to defend thw Quack issue. they have said that HyperZ wasn't working across the board, so ATI enabled it only in Quake 3 or something like that. either that, or they did some other optimizations that would approximate the extra peformance HyperZ would give, as when HyperZ was enabled, the performance was very similar to Quack drivers.

if ATI supporters say it, i'll believe it, in this type of case
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Old 08-22-02, 10:33 PM   #17
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Default Re: Case of the Disappearing Shadows

Quote:
Originally posted by legion88
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2126

New accusation against NVIDIA for cheating. And we are told that these non-shadows would lead to a significant performance advantage. In other words, NVIDIA is accused of not rendering everything to beef up frame rates.
Reminds me of the issue a Detonator driver set had with rendering fog in the 3DMark2001 Dragothic test. From what I recall, it was only a problem on the GeForce4, yet people went straight for NVIDIA's jugular vein.

BTW Roscoe, that was one hell of an article you put together!
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Old 08-23-02, 09:45 AM   #18
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well ill be honest.. i dunno about the hyperz thing and have no way to say it is true or not.. I only had a Radeon1 at the time.. the quack BS did affect me .. but thats about it (and it didn't raise my frames any.. i woulda remembered. .i flip out when i get even a 2fps framerate increase in quake3)

I do know I visit Rage3d every single day and this is the FIRST time I have seen that ..

i like to look at myself as hardcore ATi .. and I doubt there would be something that big that I would've not known about..

oh well.. was a while ago anyways .. not like it matters any now
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Old 08-23-02, 07:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Megatron
Im just curious as to your feelings on the Gf4/3Dmark "bug" Legion?
Would this be a similar case?
I have no idea whether that is a "bug" or a deliberate "cheat" because I am not familiar with it. (I'm assuming that this is the same issue that Reynolds mentioned.)

Making guesses as to how NVIDIA "probably" did this or "maybe did" that is certainly not the same as actually knowing that ATi's drivers were programmed to recognize Quake III. If one has to choose between guesses and actual knowledge, then I pick actual knowledge. It is actual knowledge (not a guess) that ATi's drivers were programmed to recognize Quake III and treat it differently.

Also I am familiar with the "quack" cheat because I was one of the first people to have purchased a Radeon 8500. Now, it wouldn't have mattered to me that they cheated--I would have still purchased the card. But it MIGHT have mattered to other people and it is too bad that this "quack" cheat was not "fixed" until roughly a month after the reviews hit the shelves.

Today, too many people are quick to jump on NVIDIA's case and just as quickly defend ATi because of the "quack" controversy. This was not always the case.

A couple of years ago, NVIDIA also had a problem with 3DMark2000. Dynamic lights in the game tests (the one with the helicopter) were not shown. This boosted performance. I was one of the first people to have noticed that--I had a G400 as well and (call it luck) I noticed something different with the GF256's. I would not have noticed the lack of DL if it wasn't for the G400 that I had. NVIDIA fixed the problem, the next driver set showed a decrease in performance.

NVIDIA wasn't accused of cheating. Do you know what people did instead? They accused NVIDIA of doing something stupid with the drivers because the performance dropped. The newer drivers suck was the battle cry. It didn't seem to matter that they fixed the DL bug.

Today, any NVIDIA bug is a cheat now, coupled with gross exagerration about some perceived persecution against ATi. And as the saying goes, perception is reality.

Did you know that in the past three years, ATI was only accused of cheating once and only once? That one time is the "quack" case and obviously gets a lot of airplay. In fact, an ATi fan was the first person here in this thread to mention it, not me.

Now compare it to NVIDIA where everytime there's a problem, someone has to throw in the "cheating for performance" angle. The disappearing shadows is just the latest example.
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Old 08-23-02, 08:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Re: Case of the Disappearing Shadows

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Originally posted by MikeC


Reminds me of the issue a Detonator driver set had with rendering fog in the 3DMark2001 Dragothic test. From what I recall, it was only a problem on the GeForce4, yet people went straight for NVIDIA's jugular vein.

BTW Roscoe, that was one hell of an article you put together!
Thanks. It's an old article, but it illustrates a point that even with an old bug that shows up again, NVIDIA gets accused of cheating.

Coupled with denial that their favorite company did wrong....

Reminds me of how people wish to report recycling rates.

An organization last year responded to a survey regarding recycling rates. The results was published in Dec 2001 by BioCycle magazine. This same organization already published a report months before BioCycle published their results of the survey.

The organization's report had these numbers:
MSW = municipal solid waste.

1.828 million MSW recycled.
4.440 million MSW disposed.
6.268 million MSW managed (recycled plus disposed).

So if you calculate the recycling rate (the report itself does not give recycling rates for MSW), it works out to be 1.8/6.2 = 29.2%. This means that 70.8% was disposed.

Do you know what the numbers in BioCycle look like?
6.268 million total MSW (just like the report). But the recycling rate was 37% while the disposal was 63%.

The person in the organization responsible for filling out the survey denied that there was any wrongdoing.

What this person did was to claim 2.299 million MSW recycled tons instead of the correct 1.828 million. The person added ash that was recycled and waste from industries that were recycled with the MSW to get that greater number. Since the total still had to add up to 6.268 million, the person then had the disposal number adjusted (e.g. tons subtracted from it) to make sure that it still all adds up to 6.268 million.

The person actually admitted that the 2.299 million was substituted for the 1.828 million. 2.299/6.268 = 36.7%, rounded to 37%. But claims she doesn't remember if the disposal tons were adjusted in anyway while denying that there was any wrongdoing. Funny how that works.
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