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Old 05-27-07, 06:33 AM   #25
quintesse
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-singh
I have bugged poor Nigel for months
Yeah, he is often way too friendly and helpfull hehe

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-singh
I do have 1 GB RAM, but I do not see what does the amount of system memory have to do with this.
I thought that that was what the "ProcSetting extra_pages_allowance 0" was for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cement_head
So, if the nv module (the Xorg driver) allows suspend and hibernate, that means the scripts work.
Although I tend to agree with you it might not be that obvious because the NV driver has a lot less functionality when compared to the nVidia driver so it won't even wake up/touch most of the hardware (somewhere between 80-90% of the hardware is related to 3D which the NV driver does not support).

In the end the best thing would be for one of the nVidia engineers to take an active interrest in this problem.
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Old 05-27-07, 09:49 PM   #26
m-singh
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

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Originally Posted by quintesse



Although I tend to agree with you it might not be that obvious because the NV driver has a lot less functionality when compared to the nVidia driver so it won't even wake up/touch most of the hardware (somewhere between 80-90% of the hardware is related to 3D which the NV driver does not support).

In the end the best thing would be for one of the nVidia engineers to take an active interrest in this problem.
Well, some of them tell us to yell at the vendors, who have modified their hardware.

Given how most vendors only tolerate the use of Linux on their sold as windows machines and politely tell you to take a hike if you bring up a linux problem, I would dare say that that means that no one is really responsible for fixing this problem.

Not vendors because they mostly do not care for their linux users.

Not Nvidia because they claim that their hardware is messed up by vendors.

Not the free software community (and us) because Nvidia will not release their drivers so that someone can fix these bugs, someone you know, who might actually be interested in helping linux users.

I do not think I will ever make the mistake of buying anything with nvidia in it. Back to Intel land for me after I am done with this laptop.
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Old 05-27-07, 11:08 PM   #27
wschutzer
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

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I do not think I will ever make the mistake of buying anything with nvidia in it. Back to Intel land for me after I am done with this laptop.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is having these thoughts lately. Even more now that nvidia has rather impolitely shut down my post.

Well, but than again, perhaps it's not the moment yet for giving up on nVidia's (hardware), for there is some hope coming from Nouveau.

Furthermore, now that Intel has released open source video drivers and, as it seems, ATI/AMD will do the same, perhaps this will put some pressure on nVidia to release open source drivers as well.

Waldeck
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Old 05-28-07, 03:09 AM   #28
quintesse
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

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Originally Posted by m-singh
Back to Intel land for me
Well as long as Intel does not start make decent 3D cards that's not going to happen here. I like my games too much and without decent hardware game develoeprs will be even less willing to make some effort to make things work for Linux. So I'll probably just stick with nVidia hoping things will improve (or that ATI will open up now that AMD has bought them).
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Old 05-28-07, 04:40 AM   #29
m-singh
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

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Originally Posted by quintesse
Well as long as Intel does not start make decent 3D cards that's not going to happen here. I like my games too much and without decent hardware game develoeprs will be even less willing to make some effort to make things work for Linux. So I'll probably just stick with nVidia hoping things will improve (or that ATI will open up now that AMD has bought them).
Depends on the machine and the person.

To me, for a laptop, reliable suspend to RAM and hibernate (suspend to disk) is infinitely more important than the ability to play graphic intensive games. I mostly use my laptop for work, not games, and the ability to pick up where I left off last time (and you cannot use suspend to RAM at all times - for instance when you are flying or travelling otherwise) is utterly non-negotiable for me.

For a desktop, I would be with you - my desktop has an old nvidia card (which is what lead to this mistake in my purchase decision).
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Old 05-28-07, 04:45 AM   #30
gbil
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

Well I have a laptop with intel and a desktop with 8800GTS nvidia.

Both suspend on disk and on memory just fine

So it is a matter of just supporting ACPI well on mainboard.
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Old 05-28-07, 04:59 AM   #31
m-singh
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

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Originally Posted by wschutzer
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is having these thoughts lately. Even more now that nvidia has rather impolitely shut down my post.

Well, but than again, perhaps it's not the moment yet for giving up on nVidia's (hardware), for there is some hope coming from Nouveau.

Furthermore, now that Intel has released open source video drivers and, as it seems, ATI/AMD will do the same, perhaps this will put some pressure on nVidia to release open source drivers as well.

Waldeck
I am afraid that when things do not work, you do not persist with them if there are alternatives available. Intel's chips are an alternative.

Its frankly shocking that in this day and age, a major hardware vendor with a single family of products would be acting so arrogantly towards their users. I do not dismiss the argument that some laptop vendors possibly modify the chips that nvidia makes. Which in turn creates an impossible situation for nvidia engineers in having to write drivers for possibly modified hardware, over which they may have only partial control.

What makes this unacceptable is the policy of nvidia to not release the specs so that millions strong open source community can write a proper driver, instead of a pathetic attempt to reverse engineer a complicated driver, something that is likely to cause persistent problems. Yes, Dell (in my case) might still not release the specs of their modifications. But it is an incontestable argument that reverse engineering the small modifications that Dell makes would be far far easier than the current state of affairs, where the giant binary blob that nvidia drivers are, are totally opaque and no one can even guess which part of the driver is failing.

And I have seen generous offers from nvidia engineers to try to fix this once they have been shipped the laptop by the people having problems. This, supremely well-intentioned as it might be, is amateurish. I use my laptop to earn my bread and butter - do they think I can afford even a day without it ? And precisely what stops nvidia, from taking cognizance of all these issues, and contacting Dell directly and asking them what modifications were made to the chipset. Surely, nvidia carries far more clout with Dell than a mere user like me does. That is in case, nvidia, fully within their rights, decide to stick with the closed source model.

Whatever you choose, you have to ensure that your product works.

The operative principle is that if you cannot do the job, release enough information so that someone else can. Especially for a company that makes its money from selling hardware and provides its software (drivers in particular) for free. Don't the pointy heads at nvidia understand that if reliable drivers for nvidia were to become available under the open source process, (especially before their rival ATI does so), they would gain a commanding market share among Linux users ?

Why ? Because if all things were truly equal, nvidia's chips are superior to those that Intel makes. And no matter what FUD says about Linux users, most of us value performance and are willing to pay for it.

This is me speaking, as an nvidia fan who has been so soured by this experience that I might never buy nvidia again, even for desktops.
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Old 05-30-07, 07:46 PM   #32
m-singh
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Default Re: SUSPEND works; HIBERNATE will not poweroff

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Originally Posted by cement_head
I've been digging around Debian developer lists and I think its pretty clear that the 'core' people at Debian believe that the reason machines can't suspend or hibernate is to do with specifics of ACPI interaction with different hardware. Yes, this is an obvious statement, BUT, what it means is that hacking the ACPI scripts should enable suspend and hibernate on ALL machines.

...

Thats what I'm working on...and how I'm approaching it.

- CH
I was wondering if you had any luck.
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