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Old 04-07-03, 08:48 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uttar
Well, CG is sometimes slower than HLSL, even on a NV3x. This was proved by pocketmoon over at Beyond3D. So on a non-NV3x, I wouldn't be too optimistic on performance.

Microsoft got a LOT of experience with compilers. nVidia don't. I guess it'll get better in the future. But for now, Cg is still slower than HLSL.


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Later on HLSL would also improve to the point where CG may not even be necessary, or just a bad option. Remember Uttar, CG will not be the only thing improving.

Devs will use the HLSL support for whatever API they plan on using. I just don't see why devs need to use D3D and OGL in 1 game. Just a waste of time.
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Old 04-07-03, 08:56 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
Later on HLSL would also improve to the point where CG may not even be necessary, or just a bad option. Remember Uttar, CG will not be the only thing improving.
IMO, that's not really correct.
AFAIK, The more advanced a compiler is, the least speed gains you can have in a defined time during which you optimize the compiler.
And that means the gap between Cg & HLSL should become smaller. That is, if nVidia continues to see Cg as a serious project, which they probably will.

I'm sure that as NV3x drivers mature and Cg matures, the NV3x will be faster on Cg than on HLSL ( it already is in some cases ) , and other cards would be maybe very slightly slower than on HLSL.

But you've got to remember nVidia had a great response from companies who develop tools like Maya and stuff. That means such things are already using Cg - and it actually simplifies the artist's job to have *everything* in Cg thus: it makes no sense to do a Cg version, then lose time converting it to HLSL!

In conclusion, I believe that, with time, Cg is going to win. It might take a long time, and HLSL/GLSlang might never really go away and keep a good part of the marketshare. But in the end, Cg will still be more frequent.

Of course, that's just speculation. But speculation is fun


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Old 04-07-03, 09:02 AM   #123
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Of course it is speculation but I am only talking about the gaming market.

I have doubts that CG will kick off very fast or even well in the gaming market. I am not ruling it out, it's just that I have doubts.
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Old 04-07-03, 09:43 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
Later on HLSL would also improve to the point where CG may not even be necessary, or just a bad option. Remember Uttar, CG will not be the only thing improving.
There are still fundamental differences between Cg and DX9 HLSL. Cg, for one, supports OpenGL. There is currently no available competing HLSL for OpenGL.

And in DirectX, DX9 HLSL offers no runtime compiling. This is a potentially great benefit for Cg, so that future hardware need not be great at running shaders designed for previous hardware.

Quote:
Devs will use the HLSL support for whatever API they plan on using. I just don't see why devs need to use D3D and OGL in 1 game. Just a waste of time.
But some developers do it. To date, here are the games that I know of that have done it:
Half-Life
Unreal
Unreal Tournament
Unreal Tournament 2003
Serious Sam
Serious Sam SE

Anyway, I think the answer is obvious. Companies interested in licensing their game engine to other developers are going to be interested in supporting both OpenGL and Direct3D.
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Old 04-07-03, 10:01 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
Of course it is speculation but I am only talking about the gaming market.

I have doubts that CG will kick off very fast or even well in the gaming market. I am not ruling it out, it's just that I have doubts.
I don't think you understood my point...
I meant that Cg is integrated in those tools. Those tools nearly suggest to support Cg! And those are the tools artists use to create the art in YOUR games.
So, if they want a preview of the real thing in the tool, and that greatly simplifies their job, then they'll use Cg. And since Cg isn't really worse than HLSL, and such projects are time-limited, they won't rewrite anything to HLSL.

Thus, those developers would ship their games with Cg instead of HLSL / GLSlang to simplify the artists' job.

Did you understand my point now?


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Old 04-07-03, 10:03 AM   #126
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Uttar: I understood your point the first time, I don't think you understand my point.

BAH! This is a waste of time.
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Old 04-07-03, 02:48 PM   #127
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Originally posted by pancakebunny
The R300 isn't as programmable as the FX but the R350 is far more programmable than the FX.
I can't understand this logic at all. What makes the R350 more programmable than the NV30? The f-buffer? That just simplifies multipassing.

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CG might be useful and then again CG could just be Nvidia's way of fixing their mistake. I see CG as another Glide 2.0 if it doesn't support other programmable GPU cards.
And where did you get this from? I can guess the site probably. Anyway Cg outputs DX/OGL standard shaders which will run on any graphics card that supports them. Xabre, Parhelia, Radeon, whatever. It is no way comparable to Glide.
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Old 04-07-03, 03:09 PM   #128
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I think some are just confused, cg is not an api its a programming tool.
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Old 04-07-03, 03:55 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
Devs will use the HLSL support for whatever API they plan on using. I just don't see why devs need to use D3D and OGL in 1 game. Just a waste of time.
you'd be surprised.

besides what Chalnoth listed, don't forget about WarCraft3!

you can run it in D3D or OGL...although the OGL implementation is not as good. I think it was included for Macs.
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Old 04-07-03, 10:28 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by walkndude
I think some are just confused, cg is not an api its a programming tool.
I know. I practically read about several pages of information about it long ago. I am aware of what CG is and it's uses.

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you can run it in D3D or OGL...although the OGL implementation is not as good. I think it was included for Macs.
Exactly. That was one of my points.

Back to CG: Why do people think that CG is a magical tool that will make all the headaches go away? I can gaurantee anyone that there will still be headaches. In fact I am willing to bet my life on it.
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Old 04-07-03, 10:34 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
Exactly. That was one of my points.

Back to CG: Why do people think that CG is a magical tool that will make all the headaches go away? I can gaurantee anyone that there will still be headaches. In fact I am willing to bet my life on it.
It can't make all the headaches go away.

But it does make it nearly trivial to support any DX9 card in Direct3D and OpenGL with good performance.
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Old 04-07-03, 10:44 PM   #132
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It can't make all the headaches go away.

But it does make it nearly trivial to support any DX9 card in Direct3D and OpenGL with good performance.
THANK YOU!

I'm not too sure about performance at this current stage though. My main point I was trying to get out is that CG isn't going to create miracles. I found it annoying that people were talking about CG as it was the lord of 3d graphics. Like it was the be-all and end-all of 3d.

I'm pretty sure nVidia will eventually get their compilers a lot more optimised and iron out bugs.
My main concern is while nVidia are doing that, what is stoping M$ from doing something like that of their own?
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