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Old 03-31-03, 10:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobHague
lol in your completley un-bias opinion. If carmack thinks its worthwhile then thats more than enough credentials for me. I look forward to doom3 very much

I think the "fx perfromance is rubbish" thing is kinda old now, stop floging a dead horse lol.
so you think the NV30 will give usable levels of performance running beyond DX9 specs given it's performance with DX9 drivers so far
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Old 03-31-03, 11:00 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Steppy
You're making some faulty statement here.

1. Both the 32-bit FP(would be 128-bit color as its 32-bit PER CHANNEL) and 24-bit FP( results are downsampled when they are rendered. The FP people are talking about is for color calculations NOT output. It's much the same as the old 3dfx 22-bit color thing...it rendered higher quality 16-bit because all of its calculations were done in 32-bit.

2. It's been shown time and time again that going above DX specs yields nothing as those feature never get supported in games using that API. They may get used in OGL, but few use them.

3. Carnack's comments had NOTHING to do with ATI being 24-bit as opposed to 32...it was about the instruction count being used in situations he was screwing around with NOT game situations, and this has already been addressed in R350 which surpasses the FX's dx9"+"specs.

4. ATI's card being "minimum DX9" is pretty irrelevant as we're probably at LEAST a year a way from games making ANY use of DX9, and TWO years away from games using DX9 as much as DX8 is used now.

Look buddy I disagree with you on several levels ehre, So let me tackle them.


Quote:
4. ATI's card being "minimum DX9" is pretty irrelevant as we're probably at LEAST a year a way from games making ANY use of DX9, and TWO years away from games using DX9 as much as DX8 is used now.
Improved programmability is never a bad thing, Coming from a programmer,

And the situation where the r300 is"limited" in programmability compared to the r350 and Geforce FX, is somewhat disapointing, Its in ability to be programmed at multiple levels of precision makes it "under" DirectX 9.0 specifications and limits what can be done with DirectX 9.0. There's no argument the r300 is DX 9.0 compliant in a way that leaves no room for imagination. Savvy?


Quote:
2. It's been shown time and time again that going above DX specs yields nothing as those feature never get supported in games using that API. They may get used in OGL, but few use them.
Irrelevent, Whether it gets used in DirectX 9.0 or DirectX 10. More programmability in the future is good. The r300 is the most limited DirectX 9.0 card available right now. If you don't buy for new tech, Then what are you buying for? People claim the r300 is very future proof, In Actuality, It's not, Your argument basically reiterates that.


Quote:
Carnack's comments had NOTHING to do with ATI being 24-bit as opposed to 32...it was about the instruction count being used in situations he was screwing around with NOT game situations, and this has already been addressed in R350 which surpasses the FX's dx9"+"specs.
What the hell are you talking about here? He specifically stated he would prefer 16 bit precision, he also stated 24 bit yielded no significant IQ improvement over the r200's 16 bit. He also stated that 32 bit had marginal Image Quality improvements over 24 bit.

If you don't believe me. All you gotta do is load up your browser, Go to beyond3d.com and check out their carmack interviews. I'd point you there, But I am not gonna spoon feed it



Quote:
1. Both the 32-bit FP(would be 128-bit color as its 32-bit PER CHANNEL) and 24-bit FP( results are downsampled when they are rendered. The FP people are talking about is for color calculations NOT output. It's much the same as the old 3dfx 22-bit color thing...it rendered higher quality 16-bit because all of its calculations were done in 32-bit.


Uh its irrelevent because its not actually outputting at that precision, How thats being done is irrelevent, Its the end result that matters.


Quote:
The R300 certainly doesn't appear to have any separate execution units, but the FP24 units could be used to emulate INT16 quite easily (since it does have 1-bit sign and 15-bit mantissa).
I find this quite strange since people have been dogging on Nvidia for using its Pixel Shader 2.0 to emulate Pixel Shader 1.4
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Old 03-31-03, 11:09 AM   #39
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Originally posted by ChrisRay
The r300 is the most limited DirectX 9.0 card available right now.

I'm sure nvidia will whatever they can to rectify that *cough*DX9 for $79*cough*

If you don't buy for new tech, Then what are you buying for?

only the best performance and IQ currently available

People claim the r300 is very future proof, In Actuality, It's not, Your argument basically reiterates that.

yeah don't be fooled by the 9700pro's amazing performance and no.1 spot in WHQL-certified benchmarks, it'll be below minimum spec for new games in a couple of months.


it's so absurd how people are saying that the NV30 is so great because it goes beyond DX9 when it's having trouble keeping up with 7-months older 9700pro even now

edit by StealthHawk: no name calling. i'm sure it wasn't intentional that you misspelled ChrisRay, now was it
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Old 03-31-03, 11:12 AM   #40
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The texture filtering of the Radeon 9700 is still below-par.
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Old 03-31-03, 11:14 AM   #41
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Originally posted by Chalnoth
The texture filtering of the Radeon 9700 is still below-par.
you mean the way it only has 8xAF instead of nvidia's 16xAF?

oh, wait a minute...
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Old 03-31-03, 11:25 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobHague
No, the R350 is an optimized R300 core. It has added programabiliy in some area's however it does not surpass the FX for programability. Nvidia have that at least - if you take a look at the comparison charts around the net for the R300/350 against DX9 against the FX then the FX clearley has more programability. But then if it never gets used its not going to matter is it. Im sure it was Carmack that said he was going to be basing his future projects on the things the NV30 made possible.
True, but Steppy was specifically talking about instruction count limits which Carmack mentioned he had hit. These should apparently be removed on the R350. He just shouldn't have broadened his comment to include surpassing of all the FX' features.
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Old 03-31-03, 01:16 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Beige
Originally posted by ChrisRay
The r300 is the most limited DirectX 9.0 card available right now.

I'm sure nvidia will whatever they can to rectify that *cough*DX9 for $79*cough*

If you don't buy for new tech, Then what are you buying for?

only the best performance and IQ currently available

People claim the r300 is very future proof, In Actuality, It's not, Your argument basically reiterates that.

yeah don't be fooled by the 9700pro's amazing performance and no.1 spot in WHQL-certified benchmarks, it'll be below minimum spec for new games in a couple of months.


it's so absurd how people are saying that the NV30 is so great because it goes beyond DX9 when it's having trouble keeping up with 7-months older 9700pro even now

I'm gonna score you 10 for reading comprehension,

Never did I praise the Nv30 for anything except programmability, Are you going to offer a real argument towards the limitations of the r300's programmability or are you going to continue with rhetoric replies eye rolls?

And as a matter of fact, I was also praising the r350 for programmability as well.

If you can see past your brand loyalty you will realise the r300 is the most limited programmable graphics card that meets DirectX 9.0 standards.

Why the r350 and Nv30 Lineup offer significant improvements over the r300 in terms programmability and user friendly programming functions.
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Old 03-31-03, 03:15 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
If you can see past your brand loyalty you will realise the r300 is the most limited programmable graphics card that meets DirectX 9.0 standards.
you should stop looking for phrasings like this that make the r300 seem like it's inferior. the 9700pro/9500pro are absolutely amazing cards and ATI have really raised the bar whereas for years have been pushing the same old core with slight improvements. nvidia finally seemed to actually do some work for the NV30, but then it turns out to use the same old AA techniques, to not be a true 8x1 architechture, and turns up half a year late and hotter and noisier and hyped with more BS than ever card ever before. and to add to it all they use driver hacks just to keep up with a 7 month old competing card.

you're the one who's blinded by brand loyalty, not me. ATI should be congratulated for the r300. nvidia should be criticised for the NV30. of course there are some good things about it, but if you care about the graphics industry nvidia needs to be sent a clear message that customers will not accept being bullsh!ted in this way. now is not the time for apologists.
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Old 03-31-03, 03:21 PM   #45
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The NV30 PS performance *is* pathetic, want it or not. That's the main reason while I have, a few months ago, gone from "The NV30 isn't all that great, but it's still quite good." to "The NV30 isn't good."
Using the 42.68 drivers yes, PS2.0 performance _was_ crap.

Regardless of the IQ implications, the PS2.0 performance using the latest 43.45 drivers in 3dmark03 supasses the 9700 now.

They can probably get it faster too.
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Old 03-31-03, 03:50 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Beige
you should stop looking for phrasings like this that make the r300 seem like it's inferior. the 9700pro/9500pro are absolutely amazing cards and ATI have really raised the bar whereas for years have been pushing the same old core with slight improvements. nvidia finally seemed to actually do some work for the NV30, but then it turns out to use the same old AA techniques, to not be a true 8x1 architechture, and turns up half a year late and hotter and noisier and hyped with more BS than ever card ever before. and to add to it all they use driver hacks just to keep up with a 7 month old competing card.

you're the one who's blinded by brand loyalty, not me. ATI should be congratulated for the r300. nvidia should be criticised for the NV30. of course there are some good things about it, but if you care about the graphics industry nvidia needs to be sent a clear message that customers will not accept being bullsh!ted in this way. now is not the time for apologists.

Like I said, Your reading comprehension is absolutely sub par at best, I am not comparing the cards architecture other than programmability,

In Which the r300 is the least programmable DirectX 9.0 card available. Offering the most limited DirectX 9.0 functionality.

The Nv30 And its successors Plus the R350 offer incredible advancement in Pixel Shading programming.

Your just using selective reasoning and completely ignoring the argument that the r300 is the most limited DX 9.0 card programmability wise.

The card itself is FINE, But it offers the most limitations from a programmers point of view, Just like the r300 offers more programmability than the R200 or the Nv25,

Its called progression in technology, The Nv30 does have more programmability than the r300. Thats what we are discussing. This is what you seem to be unable to comprehend.

If you can't accept the fact that the Nv30 offers superior programmability to the R300, Then nothing is going to make you see that.

I'm no expert on the r350 but it seems to tackle the problems of the r300, Also offering superior programmablity.

I don't care about the things you listed, Because as a programmer, They are not important to me.


I care about only a few things when it comes to programming.

Feature Rich technology
Ease of use, And a good compiler,
and Alterior aproaches to similar functions.
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Old 03-31-03, 03:57 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nutty
Using the 42.68 drivers yes, PS2.0 performance _was_ crap.

Regardless of the IQ implications, the PS2.0 performance using the latest 43.45 drivers in 3dmark03 supasses the 9700 now.

They can probably get it faster too.

Its debatable whether Nvidia just lowered its precision or if they actually improved pixel shader 2.0 performance.

I imagine a little of both has happened.
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Old 03-31-03, 05:00 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Like I said, Your reading comprehension is absolutely sub par at best, I am not comparing the cards architecture other than programmability,

In Which the r300 is the least programmable DirectX 9.0 card available. Offering the most limited DirectX 9.0 functionality.

The Nv30 And its successors Plus the R350 offer incredible advancement in Pixel Shading programming.

Your just using selective reasoning and completely ignoring the argument that the r300 is the most limited DX 9.0 card programmability wise.

The card itself is FINE, But it offers the most limitations from a programmers point of view, Just like the r300 offers more programmability than the R200 or the Nv25,

Its called progression in technology, The Nv30 does have more programmability than the r300. Thats what we are discussing. This is what you seem to be unable to comprehend.

If you can't accept the fact that the Nv30 offers superior programmability to the R300, Then nothing is going to make you see that.

I'm no expert on the r350 but it seems to tackle the problems of the r300, Also offering superior programmablity.

I don't care about the things you listed, Because as a programmer, They are not important to me.


I care about only a few things when it comes to programming.

Feature Rich technology
Ease of use, And a good compiler,
and Alterior aproaches to similar functions.
no, you are still talking BS. phrases like "Offering the most limited DirectX 9.0 functionality" are BS because DX9 is not about just programmability. the R300 currently offeres the best DX9 functionality because it is the only with WHQL certified drivers and is DX9 compliant ALL the time (and is also widely available and relatively cheap - 9500pro is best bang for buck card ever). also, the programmability you're talking about is not to do with DX9 at all, it's DX9+.

if you want to just talk about programmabilty separately from any other issues (e.g. actually being available to buy) then don't use such BS general phrases like "Offering the most limited DirectX 9.0 functionality".

say things like "NV30 supports x number of instructions, whereas R300 has y number".

and you're also only talking about specs. you really think many programmers will code for NV30's DX9+ abilities given how few are available and the NV30 is crippled by its 128 bit memory anyway? (you think many will even code for DX9 at all until we're into the R400+ era?)
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