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Old 09-08-02, 02:06 PM   #85
Lowen Na
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I don't know... I mean, I know that there are always some issues with a new card launch, but it always seems to me that the ATI card's launch is much much more rocky than the NVIDIA cards.

I don't want to sound like I am spewing propoganda, but I have had lots of cards from both companies and I have rarely had problems with the Nvidia cards. The ATI cards seem to be great hardware most of the time, but the drivers have always seem to be lacking, bugged, slow to be fixed, and poorer in proformance.

I have a GeForce 3 in my main system, and a Radeon 8500 in my arcade emulator cabinet. The Geforece 3 hasn't had any problems ever, and it was bought on the day that they came out.

The Radeon has had, over all, good proformance, but I have incountered bugs with it, were somethings that I can run on my main machine won't run as well or corectly on my arcade machine.

Another thing that bothers me about ATI is the new 9700 is suppost to support 8X AGP. I read on rage3d the other day that there are only 3 motherboards on the market with 8X AGP, and the 9700 doesn't work with any of them. Seems like false advertising, poor Quality Control, and bad PR, if that is true.

I don't hate ATI or anything, and I hope that they can compete with Nvidia (keeps the market moving). But I do hear much worse things about ATI products than I do with Nvidia, and I have had better luck with Nvidia than I have had with ATI. Guess which card I will buy next.
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Old 09-08-02, 02:16 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lowen Na
I don't know... I mean, I know that there are always some issues with a new card launch, but it always seems to me that the ATI card's launch is much much more rocky than the NVIDIA cards.

I don't want to sound like I am spewing propoganda, but I have had lots of cards from both companies and I have rarely had problems with the Nvidia cards. The ATI cards seem to be great hardware most of the time, but the drivers have always seem to be lacking, bugged, slow to be fixed, and poorer in proformance.

I have a GeForce 3 in my main system, and a Radeon 8500 in my arcade emulator cabinet. The Geforece 3 hasn't had any problems ever, and it was bought on the day that they came out.

The Radeon has had, over all, good proformance, but I have incountered bugs with it, were somethings that I can run on my main machine won't run as well or corectly on my arcade machine.

Another thing that bothers me about ATI is the new 9700 is suppost to support 8X AGP. I read on rage3d the other day that there are only 3 motherboards on the market with 8X AGP, and the 9700 doesn't work with any of them. Seems like false advertising, poor Quality Control, and bad PR, if that is true.

I don't hate ATI or anything, and I hope that they can compete with Nvidia (keeps the market moving). But I do hear much worse things about ATI products than I do with Nvidia, and I have had better luck with Nvidia than I have had with ATI. Guess which card I will buy next.

couldnt say it any better. my same thoughts on both cards.

wolfie
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Old 09-08-02, 03:01 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lowen Na

Another thing that bothers me about ATI is the new 9700 is suppost to support 8X AGP. I read on rage3d the other day that there are only 3 motherboards on the market with 8X AGP, and the 9700 doesn't work with any of them. Seems like false advertising, poor Quality Control, and bad PR, if that is true.
There were problems as well when AGP 4X debuted, so this is nothing new really. The Xabre is an 8X card, and is having troubles too. Part of the problem is that there just weren't any motherboards available (other than an Intel reference board) for ATi to debug on. SiS has already acknolwdged that its 8X board has issues actually supporting 8X, and has released a new bios to correct it, so ATi is not the only one having growing pains with this new transfer protocol.

False advertising? Is this like saying its a DX9 board even though there are no DX9 games/demos/benchmarks, let alone the DX9 API? Is that false advertising? As long as ATi corrects the problem (whether by replacing early boards, offering a new bios flash, or working with mobo manufacturers to develop a new mobo bios to correct the problem) before AGP 8X board arrive in mass, I don't see the problem.

Poor quality control? Perhaps, but as stated it's difficult to debug on phantom hardware. If the NV30 has game issues with game xx because the developer didn't have an NV30 to debug on, the best NVIDIA could hope to do is help correct the problem (whether on their end or the developers) and not hide it from consumers.

Bad PR? Lol, they acknolwedge the problem early, and offer to replace boards for users having this problem. How on Earth can that be bad PR? I guess your definition of good PR is when game developers find a bug in XX companies drivers, but company XX refuses to correct it because they fear it might tarnish their image for the bug to become public knowledge. Therefore, the bug stays, and developers are forced to work around it, sometimes causing other companies products that have properly implemented the function to work abnormaly. This is bad for consumers, because the driver issues get "granfathered" in as a legacy work-around (this isn't fantasy, it has happened). Yes, this is the epitomy of good PR... just keep up the image, reality doesn't matter at all. I'll leave it to you to guess which company XX is.
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Old 09-08-02, 05:18 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bigus Dickus


False advertising? Is this like saying its a DX9 board even though there are no DX9 games/demos/benchmarks, let alone the DX9 API?


No... becuase there are 8X AGP boards, and it doesn't work. If ATI said that the card wad DX 9 compliant, and then the DX 9 stuff didn't work when there was DX games, APIs and Benchmarks, then I would say yes it is.

The fact is that 8X AGP is a lie at the moment becuase you can't even use the 9700 in these 8X AGP systems with out having reboot loops and lock ups.

Quote:

Bad PR? Lol, they acknolwedge the problem early, and offer to replace boards for users having this problem. How on Earth can that be bad PR? I guess your definition of good PR is when game developers find a bug in XX companies drivers, but company XX refuses to correct it because they fear it might tarnish their image for the bug to become public knowledge. Therefore, the bug stays, and developers are forced to work around it, sometimes causing other companies products that have properly implemented the function to work abnormaly. This is bad for consumers, because the driver issues get "granfathered" in as a legacy work-around (this isn't fantasy, it has happened). Yes, this is the epitomy of good PR... just keep up the image, reality doesn't matter at all. I'll leave it to you to guess which company XX is.
Developers working around it... you mean like the fog table problem in ATI drivers that has been broken for so long that developers have to have their games ask what card is been used, and if it is an ATI card, then they have to use alternate code.

If so, then I guess that company XX is ATI.
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Old 09-08-02, 05:36 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lowen Na
Developers working around it... you mean like the fog table problem in ATI drivers that has been broken for so long that developers have to have their games ask what card is been used, and if it is an ATI card, then they have to use alternate code.

If so, then I guess that company XX is ATI. [/b]
Read his post carefully. What he stated was that the workaround code would cause other cards to fail because their drivers do not produce the same problems. What you stated is an alternate code path that will not be executed on any card, just ATI.

I doubt a company like NVIDIA will allow any gamedev to produce alternate code for cases which the driver fails to render the correct result. This will tarnish their image of "perfect" drivers with a side effect that it will ruin other vendors who have been doing it properly.
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Old 09-08-02, 06:55 PM   #90
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ATi employees (PR/DR) have gone on record stating that ATi will not knowingly break their drivers to work with a particular game. This has happened in the past, and the reason it didn't work is because the function was not implemented correctly in another company's drivers and the game developer coded for the improper behavior. Instead of fixing the driver, the other company left the bug in there to avoid any PR backlash or tarnishing of their "great driver" image. Therefore some game bugs might not be from a driver bug, but instead from an improperly coded function due to the competitor's driver bugs. End consumers of course have no way to distinguish between the two, and the blame always falls squarely on ATI. It's easy to establish a reputation for "great drivers" when, no matter the 'correctness' of the driver, it is used as the standard to code around, for better or worse.

I'm not saying all ATI driver bugs are due to this by a long shot... but it has happened.

From what I understand, this has gotten much better recently, no doubt due in part to the recognition ATI has earned for producing competitive products over the past year or so.
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Old 09-08-02, 08:31 PM   #91
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Hmmm,..to answer the question about why ATI drivers always seem to come out of production shakier than NVidia is pretty simple.

Most game dev houses use NVidia cards in thier dev systems. Why? Well, NVidia is the number one provider of video cards. makes sense.

Well, in doing that the programmers of those companies write thier code so it all works. They do not get the DX/GL specs out every time and verify that is the way it is supposed to work, they just make the game work.

So here comes ATI with a driver they wrote to the DX/GL specification and BOOM, some games have trouble with it.

ATI gets egg on thier face for it, and NVidia walks away clean.


There really is no right or wrong here. Both companies (NVidia and ATI) do write and design hardware to the same specifications, but the specs are always open for interpretation, so some variance will be found in the drivers and hardware.
If ATI was the number one supplier of 3D solutions, you would see NVidia stuggling with each new release.

Nothing magic here. I have both ATI and NVidia cards here and they both have quirks I have to work around in software all the time. Sometimes there is not a solution that works for both companies products, so I have to be a bit clever about it.
When looking at the specs for DX/GL, I find they are both right, but both different as the questionable difference falls within the parameters of the specifications.

I have a 9700 now and am really surprised at the level of compatibility in the new drivers. The issues I have run into had to do with error handling of out of bounds parameters, which should not be passed to the driver anyways,

Anywho,..I have a feeling this will fall on deaf ears, but had to give it a shot.
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Old 09-08-02, 09:24 PM   #92
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the order of the day is in backing up such claims with hard evidence.

as Bigus Dickus has said, i'm sure it happens sometimes, but to blame all of ATI's driver ineptness on nvidia without providing quotes from developers or 3rd party experts seems pretty far fetched.
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Old 09-08-02, 09:36 PM   #93
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Well, in doing that the programmers of those companies write thier code so it all works. They do not get the DX/GL specs out every time and verify that is the way it is supposed to work, they just make the game work.
Actually.... I think he's right.

Look at IE v. Mozilla.

Mozilla strictly follows W3 standards, IE does not. Mozilla renders a lot (you know, .01% ) more pages incorrectly than IE. Why's that? Because people don't bother to come anywhere near following W3 standards while coding web pages and instead just make it look good in IE....

my 2 cents.
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Old 09-08-02, 09:58 PM   #94
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Originally posted by StealthHawk
the order of the day is in backing up such claims with hard evidence.

as Bigus Dickus has said, i'm sure it happens sometimes, but to blame all of ATI's driver ineptness on nvidia without providing quotes from developers or 3rd party experts seems pretty far fetched.
I don't think anyone is blaming all of ATI's past driver woes on this... far from it. In fact, I think I made a statement clearly saying that was not my intention.

And, the word seems to be that things are getting better on this front, which might explain why the 9700 has been ATI's best driver launch to date.
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Old 09-09-02, 04:00 AM   #95
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Originally posted by Bigus Dickus


I don't think anyone is blaming all of ATI's past driver woes on this... far from it. In fact, I think I made a statement clearly saying that was not my intention.

And, the word seems to be that things are getting better on this front, which might explain why the 9700 has been ATI's best driver launch to date.
reread his post. that's exactly what he's claiming.
Quote:
Hmmm,..to answer the question about why ATI drivers always seem to come out of production shakier than NVidia is pretty simple.

Most game dev houses use NVidia cards in thier dev systems. Why? Well, NVidia is the number one provider of video cards. makes sense.

Well, in doing that the programmers of those companies write thier code so it all works. They do not get the DX/GL specs out every time and verify that is the way it is supposed to work, they just make the game work.

So here comes ATI with a driver they wrote to the DX/GL specification and BOOM, some games have trouble with it.

ATI gets egg on thier face for it, and NVidia walks away clean.
his tone does lighten up a little bit later, but then he says this
Quote:
If ATI was the number one supplier of 3D solutions, you would see NVidia stuggling with each new release
BD, i think it is painfully clear that he is placing all of, or at least the majority of ATI's problems on nvidia.

you on the other hand are not blaming all of ATI's woes on nvidia, as i said in my last post.
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Old 09-09-02, 04:28 AM   #96
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Might I add, so far bugs (driver ones) have been found in the games I would be playing. If I went out and already bought the card I would have still ended up using my Geforce 3 to play the games I LIKE. So untill the drivers work perfectly for older 16bpp games with AA, Ati is a no go for me. Argue what you want, so far it isn't my type of card. In future I will be looking out for it. Like I said, bugs are what keeps me away from it. My Geforce 3 has never had 1 bug with the games I play. Quake 2, Quake 1, Warcraft 3 etc...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
Once again, perhaps it wouldn't hurt to remind you that Rage3d is the board for ATI related discussion, bug reporting, and problem solving.

NVIDIA users have half a dozen forums to spread the problems over, and there are plenty of those as well. Sure, the 9700 has some issues... all cards do initially. If you think otherwise, that's your perogative.
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