I'm displeased and upset with MikeC's behavoir in the Peter Glaskowsky thread.

digitalwanderer · 02-20-03, 09:16 AM

Dear nVnews staff:

I did not care for the way that MikeC tried to set opinion by deletion in the thread about the NV30 winning the Microwhatever award of 2002. I felt he was defending a paid flunky of nVidia by trying to stifle his detractors, and when that failed he closed the thread.

I am very disapointed, and I admit it a little angered at this behavoir. Is this going to be typical of nVnews forums in the future?

I felt nVnews was being exceptionally cool by avoiding any of these type of "fanboy" situations with the FX by staying by the facts as they are rather than trying to view them thru (expensive) rosy-colored lenses, MikeC's actions make me question that.

Quite seriously,
John Hayden
aka "digitalwanderer"

PreservedSwine · 02-20-03, 09:21 AM

Closing of thread because the administrator disagree's w/ the direction of thread is a bit hard to swallow, IMO

Geek_ · 02-20-03, 09:27 AM

I dissagree with the closing of the thread. I was just getting started and only made one post that was civil.

Hanners · 02-20-03, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I felt he was defending a paid flunky of nVidia by trying to stifle his detractors, and when that failed he closed the thread.

Well, I wouldn't call Peter Glaskowsky a 'paid flunky of nVidia', more like a man who doesn't have quite the grasp of modern graphics technology that he would perhaps like to.

However, I do have to agree that I'm more than disappointed to see posts being deleted from the thread, followed by it ultimately being locked. Besides the odd flame (which IMO was nothing worthy of post deletion), most of the conversation was intelligent and thoughtful (as always seems to be the case here, which is why I try to spend a bit of time hanging around here when I can).

Being a Moderator means walking a thin line between being too leniant and too severe, and I'm sorry to say that I think Mike crossed way too far into 'severe' territory on this occasion, and has ended up abruptly finishing a discussion which should (and quite rightly so) have run and run.

toddsmack2k · 02-20-03, 09:46 AM

I am a member with digitalwanderer over at DH and want to speak up for him and others who's posts were edited. The people should be allowed to speak their mind regardless of it being good or bad. I believe if you read most all the posts about that award most agree with what Dig said. They all voiced their opinion and it should be heard. I would like to think that you would want people to be passionate and care that much about the truth and calling something what it is, even if it is bad. Digitalwanderer calls it like it is. He and all others here are in the majority of thinking that the award was bought and paid for or twisted by some means. Give them what they want, to be heard. Do not close the thread. It will make you a better place to let everyone speak their mind freely even if it does not make a few happy. Sometimes the truth hurts plain and simple.

Sazar · 02-20-03, 10:07 AM

if a thread is deemed to be headed in an area that may not conform with the websites stated guidelines or into a sensitive area/flame war... it is then considered proper to close the thread to avoid further heartache and it does help the mod/supermod/admin in that they do not have to keep one eye on THAT thread while @ the same time doing whatever other duties they have on the website...

on the other hand if the thread is conctructive and is a forum to voice an opinion in a reasonable manner than it should not be closed...

considering the thread in question there were various comments made which were personal attacks which stooped far below the level set by Peter... I personally posted a couple of not so nice little tid-bits

but I did not attack as vehemently as some others...

so long as the posters whose submissions were edited were informed as to why this happened... which I think was done... there should be little reason to complain...

besides it is the mod/supermod/admins perogative as to what they would like to do

however...

IMO I do not think that the thread should have been closed... especially for the reasons posted... the same can be said for peter.. he could have simply avoided the flame wars by using better judgement and posting more accurately or in more detail WHAT the award was based on...

the thread became what it was not just because of the award... but the reasons posted and then the defense of the reasons posted...

again perhaps a little more sensitivity on the matter could have made that thread stay open and perhaps this thread could have been avoided... and this probably applies to all of us.... no just to peter and the mod in question...

gravioli · 02-20-03, 10:38 AM

Okay, maybe I was slightly out of line by ending my 2-3 line post with "god damn idiot". However, why wasn't I asked to remove that part of the post? I would have gladly edited it. The meat of my post just asked people to send a well thought/constructive e-mail to PNG concerning the Microprocessor Report decision.

My hunch is that PNG and the Microprocessor Report do have some pull in the industry and Mike didn't want to have nV News looked upon in a negative manner. If this was the case (and I hope it wasn't), then I would be extremely disappointed in Mike's decision to delete the posts.

Hellbinder · 02-20-03, 10:41 AM

I Dont see where any of my posts reached that level. Yet he deleted them. I was not partaking in all the out of control persoanal attacks. MikeC even deleted this this post.

Quote:

Whatever pete...

Quote:

My thanks to you all for giving me a rare fond feeling of nostalgia for the good old days. I mastered the art of flaming before many of you were even born. Mastered it, and moved on. I'm invulnerable to it now. Running and participating in various political and technical BBSs across the country from the '70s through the '90s helped me get the job I have today, where I make a good honest living by studying, thinking, and writing about the most advanced microprocessors on the market.

If any of you had the brains to wipe your own asses, you'd have long since found all the evidence you need to support our award, but you're simply not trying.

Just for the record, I don't get paid by Nvidia for my work, except insofar as there are some Nvidia people who subscribe to Microprocessor Report. There are also subscribers from ATI and other graphics-chip companies. They, and all of our subscribers, have already received the full text of the article in which I explain our award, and theirs are the only opinions of our work that matter to me.

Other than that, I'm not going to bother cleaning up any of the crap I've seen posted here. What I wrote originally is clear enough, and provides an adequate explanation of the GeForce FX's eligibility for the award. Read it, or don't, it's up to you.

Kyleb, I have to say I really like that photoshopped image. I'll make sure Jensen Huang and the marketing people at Nvidia see it. I'm sure they'll get as big a kick out of it as I did; they all have a great sense of humor. It may also provide a laugh for the folks I know at ATI, who also make great graphics chips. I mean this seriously, it's funny as hell, and a high point of my career. :-)

Yeah, Just keep posting Generalizations stooge...

Who the Hell do you think your dealing with here? Not everyone on these forums rolled off the turnip truck yesterday. The Award going to the GFFX is so patently Absurd its not even funny. What you wrote originally does not Justify a Damn thing.

You post unsupported, unprovable Generalizations and I post hard verifiable evidence. You don't even want to get into a detailed Feature debate with me pal. I don't Frikking care who you think you are or who you work for. Lets Talk about various parts of the NV30 hardware that are broken. Lets talk about totally Crippled FP32 precision. Lets talk about Sub standard Anti aliasing. Lets talk about Its 128 bit memory controller. Lets talk about its Giant cooling system. Lets talk about it losing every single benchmark when the IQ's are matched (as close as possible) to the 9700pro. Lets talk about its Long instruction lengths being to slow to actually use because of Hardware and design issues...

Lets talk about WHY you ignored shipping products like the Level-II/III 9700pro that beats the GFFX ultra in every single benchmark across the board. Lets talk about The FX having to run at nearly 200mhz faster (with the aid of a Dust Buster ) just to beat the 9700pro by a messily 10% average without any IQ enhancing features. Lets Talk about how it's going to get totally outclassed before it even hits the consumer.

You have not made ANY case at all To support such a Ridiculous Choice.

It is so obvious that the GFFX Ultra is a completely HACKED, over clocked Speed Job its not even funny. Yet you reward a product like this??? If what you are saying is true then Ati should have been able to over clock a SINGLE 9700pro to extreme levels and win the award! Which they are perfectly capable of doing. Thats how hollow and silly your award is.

How do you judge which technology is better? The 9700pro is clearly the more elegant design. It clearly wins in every major category except Two. Max color precision, and instruction length. In fact its CLEAR you don't have a damn clue what you are even talking about with programmability. Its just length of shader instructions buddy, and a few more math functions. Thats it. The hardware itself is not Programmable. It is simply capable of running more complex shader routines. Routines that wont see the light of day for another 2 years. Both the 9700pro and GFFX are DX9 classed hardware. Even Worse, Nvidia has to revert the Nv30 to FP 16 all the time. Which makes their higher precision totally unusable. You give awards to people for Good intentions??? Hell Give Bitboys the award then. They Sold a Chip or Two here and there as well.

What is it that carries more weight for you than all the other negatives the Nv30 has. Which there are a TON. What does the Nv30 have that outweighs all the many positives that the 9700pro has. Besides which ATi DELIVERED a working product to the consumer 6 months ago.

Your decision makes no sense at all. Neither do all your foolish unsupported generalizations and Visions of Grandeur.

Which i dont see warrants deletion. Other than it is not very flattering of the nv30..

I simply should NOT have been included in the list of *offenders*. At all.

|JuiceZ| · 02-20-03, 12:30 PM

I didn't get a chance examine this thread before it was edited but the last post from Mike explains our exact feelings right now:

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeC
...the emotions lie deeper than this thread. There's a dark cloud that's been looming over the forums during the past month as anti-NVIDIA campaigns have become commonplace, which has put me in an uncomfortable situation.

But when I see the same members continually posting trash about NVIDIA, I have to draw the line. How many times does it take for someone to get their point across?

Whether this thread deserved to be closed or not isn't the issue if each one just turns into another Nvidia bash fest. Don't take it personal guys but we're just tired of it. We have no problem admiting Nvidia latest product wasn't what everyone was hoping for but we all know that, so its time to move on.

**vampireuk** · 02-20-03, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by |JuiceZ|
Whether this thread deserved to be closed or not isn't the issue if each one just turns into another Nvidia bash fest. Don't take it personal guys but we're just tired of it.

Amen to that, its just frustrating to see all the fan boy type bashing going on. We do not want it here, there are other places you can go if you wish to flame but we are here to help people.

digitalwanderer · 02-20-03, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vampireuk
but we are here to help people.

All respects to ya and no flame or offense intended, but isn't making people aware of the invalidity of an award for a product and pointing out a few real problems with a product part of "helping people"?

Which people are we talking about vampiruk, I guess that's what I'm asking.

**vampireuk** · 02-20-03, 12:47 PM

How many awards like this have been given out in the past? I am thinking quite a few, it's sad that this one is jumped on because its from a different company which some people do not like. If people come to this board they are going to read more than one thread on the FX and will form their own opinions from the many reviews out there too. However something that does not help is for someone to open a thread and see fan boy flamming and whining. By all means post opinions but we are sick to our back teeth of the constant bashing, and things are going to change for the better around here.

02-20-03, 09:16 AM	#1
digitalwanderer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 4,944	I'm displeased and upset with MikeC's behavoir in the Peter Glaskowsky thread. Dear nVnews staff: I did not care for the way that MikeC tried to set opinion by deletion in the thread about the NV30 winning the Microwhatever award of 2002. I felt he was defending a paid flunky of nVidia by trying to stifle his detractors, and when that failed he closed the thread. I am very disapointed, and I admit it a little angered at this behavoir. Is this going to be typical of nVnews forums in the future? I felt nVnews was being exceptionally cool by avoiding any of these type of "fanboy" situations with the FX by staying by the facts as they are rather than trying to view them thru (expensive) rosy-colored lenses, MikeC's actions make me question that. Quite seriously, John Hayden aka "digitalwanderer" __________________ [SIZE=1][I]"It was very important to us that NVIDIA did not know exactly where to aim. As a result they seem to have over-engineered in some aspects creating a power-hungry monster which is going to be very expensive for them to manufacture. We have a beautifully balanced piece of hardware that beats them on pure performance, cost, scalability, future mobile relevance, etc. That's all because they didn't know what to aim at." -R.Huddy[/I] [/SIZE]

02-20-03, 09:27 AM	#3
Geek_ Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 22	I dissagree with the closing of the thread. I was just getting started and only made one post that was civil. __________________ As geeky as I wanna be..

02-20-03, 10:07 AM	#6
Sazar Sayonara !!! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 9,297	if a thread is deemed to be headed in an area that may not conform with the websites stated guidelines or into a sensitive area/flame war... it is then considered proper to close the thread to avoid further heartache and it does help the mod/supermod/admin in that they do not have to keep one eye on THAT thread while @ the same time doing whatever other duties they have on the website... on the other hand if the thread is conctructive and is a forum to voice an opinion in a reasonable manner than it should not be closed... considering the thread in question there were various comments made which were personal attacks which stooped far below the level set by Peter... I personally posted a couple of not so nice little tid-bits but I did not attack as vehemently as some others... so long as the posters whose submissions were edited were informed as to why this happened... which I think was done... there should be little reason to complain... besides it is the mod/supermod/admins perogative as to what they would like to do however... IMO I do not think that the thread should have been closed... especially for the reasons posted... the same can be said for peter.. he could have simply avoided the flame wars by using better judgement and posting more accurately or in more detail WHAT the award was based on... the thread became what it was not just because of the award... but the reasons posted and then the defense of the reasons posted... again perhaps a little more sensitivity on the matter could have made that thread stay open and perhaps this thread could have been avoided... and this probably applies to all of us.... no just to peter and the mod in question... __________________ Help to find cures for Alzheimer's, Mad Cow (BSE), CJD, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease, and many Cancers. Folding@Home - Is it in you? Last edited by Sazar; 02-20-03 at 10:16 AM.

02-20-03, 10:38 AM	#7
gravioli Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cosmopolis, WA Posts: 276	Okay, maybe I was slightly out of line by ending my 2-3 line post with "god damn idiot". However, why wasn't I asked to remove that part of the post? I would have gladly edited it. The meat of my post just asked people to send a well thought/constructive e-mail to PNG concerning the Microprocessor Report decision. My hunch is that PNG and the Microprocessor Report do have some pull in the industry and Mike didn't want to have nV News looked upon in a negative manner. If this was the case (and I hope it wasn't), then I would be extremely disappointed in Mike's decision to delete the posts. __________________ Windows 7 Ultimate\|Intel i7 2700K\|Gigabyte Z68XP-3DP\|16GB GeIL Enhance CORSA\|EVGA Geforce GTX 560Ti\|OCZ Vertex2 120GB

02-20-03, 12:47 PM	#12
vampireuk **** Holster Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: The armoury Posts: 2,813	How many awards like this have been given out in the past? I am thinking quite a few, it's sad that this one is jumped on because its from a different company which some people do not like. If people come to this board they are going to read more than one thread on the FX and will form their own opinions from the many reviews out there too. However something that does not help is for someone to open a thread and see fan boy flamming and whining. By all means post opinions but we are sick to our back teeth of the constant bashing, and things are going to change for the better around here. __________________ I put children in microwaves.

02-20-03, 09:21 AM	#2
PreservedSwine I'm always hungry Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 548	Closing of thread because the administrator disagree's w/ the direction of thread is a bit hard to swallow, IMO

02-20-03, 09:46 AM	#5
toddsmack2k Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: KY Posts: 1	I am a member with digitalwanderer over at DH and want to speak up for him and others who's posts were edited. The people should be allowed to speak their mind regardless of it being good or bad. I believe if you read most all the posts about that award most agree with what Dig said. They all voiced their opinion and it should be heard. I would like to think that you would want people to be passionate and care that much about the truth and calling something what it is, even if it is bad. Digitalwanderer calls it like it is. He and all others here are in the majority of thinking that the award was bought and paid for or twisted by some means. Give them what they want, to be heard. Do not close the thread. It will make you a better place to let everyone speak their mind freely even if it does not make a few happy. Sometimes the truth hurts plain and simple.